What are French schools really like?

[Tourangelle]

[quote user="godwinsj"]

Tourangelle - I have taught in the UK 11-19

from 1976, & have an M.A in Education & I have taught in France

as well and it seems to me that the French teachers I have met have

very little idea of actually HOW to impart ideas, information etc or how to organise & control a classroom of kids.

[/quote]

Gosh well, I didn't mean to provoke you all.  SB, my

comments are really about secondary school teaching because that is what I

know about.  Obviously what you describe is not acceptable (and I

guess you would describe me as a very young teacher under 30).  I

stand by what I said, teachers are trained to be teachers, and not

civil servants.  To clarify, when I say the training is similar to

the UK, I mean in terms of secondary school teaching, as I don't know

about primary schools.

Godwinsj, I don't know while you feel the need to list your qualifications and experience, it doesn't make your comment

"state schools are run by the state to produce a people that are

brainwashed by indifferent teachers who are trained to be civil

servants" 

any more valid.  You don't know what you are talking about, you've

never gone through the French teacher training system, so perhaps you

had better refrain from making sweeping statements about a system you

clearly have no experience of.

[Debra]

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[SaligoBay]

[quote user="DebraA64"]So what DO you do if you vehemently disagree with any form of physical punishment - or any other unacceptable treatment, come to that - doled out in schools?[/quote]

Debra, you may not even know that it's happening.  I'm not saying that all teachers are violent, far from it, but in French culture at large there is more of a tendency towards physical chastisement than there is nowadays in the UK.  

Have you had a look at the "What is this item?" thread in the Lighter Side of France?  It's about how you can buy whips in the supermarket.  [;)]

[tetley]

yes I agree, the french aren't/don't seem to be shy in lashing out at the children.  I have noticed while socialising with a french family, they quickly slap for something I wouldn't even bat an eyelid at.  And don't look embarrassed for doing it either..short and sharp it seems to be.  I give my two very clear guidelines of the sort of behaviour we expect before we arrive at functions etc..and genereally the 'look' will calm them down if they are getting carried away.  I do know that in my childrens school it is fully accepted to receive a kick up the bum....have your ear pulled or hair...and be shouted at with no regard for personal space.  That is only what I have been told by my children.  Now, they have not been on the receiving end of any of this yet...but it has taught them to keep their heads down, watch, and learn!! they have become quite confident and are happy there.  They are learning a different language, culture, way of life, different experiences all round for them and I think that is a positive thing for them.  I wonder how it will all change when they start college? if my eldest stays in his year group he will move in sep 2007!!! the thought horrifies me, but so also, would the move to secondary school if we had stayed in UK.  I wonder also, how I might have felt if my children had been disciplined in any of the ways I have already mentioned in their first 6 months of school here in France?I was dreading my daughter coming home saying she'd had to spend the morning with her mouth scotched!!

[Debra]

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[godwinsj]

There was a law passed in the late 1800's forbidding physical punishment in schools in France. If you can't get the director of the establishment concerned interested then you must go to the gendarmes! They sell electronic collars in the supermarkets for shocking dogs into obediance. Just because it exists it doesn't mean that this is acceptable nor does it mean it works! We took on a chocolate lab that had been driven mad by an electronic collar, poor girl.  

As for teacher training - an Inspector for the Academie de Nantes told me once that they did not train teachers to teach in a child-centred way like they do in the UK. From what I have seen amongst colleagues & the children's teachers there seems to be a lot of emphasis on presenting the class with information which has to be learnt by rote & is then tested ad nauseam. Little seems to be explained in a fashion that means knowledge can be broken down, assimilated & understood nor does there seem to be any provision for teamwork or the sharing of knowledge.

There seems to be little support for the nurtering of a 'healthy scepticsm' which is what I feel good teaching should be about!  

[KathyC]

If you move to a country where corporal punishment is the norm, then surely you have to accept this. If you feel strongly about it then you should have done your research first and made a different decision. What would a French parent do if moving to England; insist that their child is smacked when this is not now the "done" thing in the UK? I don't see how you can pick and choose the bits of a country you want to accept and not accept the bits you don't like. Having to deal with a teacher with poor skills is a totally different thing but someone could be an excellent teacher and use the punishment methods that went out of fashion(and it is a question of fashion) in the UK forty years ago. Do many of us like people from overseas coming into the country and telling us that we're doing things wrong and that their way is better, much less expecting us to change our ways to suit them?

[KathyC]

godwinsj

Your description of teaching methods used in the UK sounds quite idyllic. However, many of us who have to deal with young people who are the products of this system  would question whether many of them have even the most basic literacy and numeracy skills (despite reasonable exam results) or even the most minimal levels of general knowledge. Educational practice can sound very good on paper but the reality is in the results (and I don't mean exam results)!

[Debra]

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[Viv]

Oh for goodness sakes, French teachers do not beat up children!

 I met many a child that was not "bad " in the UK , but they could still manage to disrupt a class. Teachers have to consider the education and well being of ALL their charges not just one, and they would surely be failing in their duty if they did not do so?

Try considering the teachers position for a moment. By sticking up for your child, if he / she is misbehaving , (even in the privacy of your home) you are sending out a signal which undermines the teacher.

Whether it is the schools or the parents, I have found French children to be far more polite , respectful and indeed happy than many of their contemporaries in the UK. As I stated on another post, I know which children I would rather have round at my house, French every time.

If the majority of French parents are happy with French schools, I can see why French teachers must dread having UK parents ( not necessarily their children) at the school.

Please, if you don't think French schools are for you, think about this before you come, I for one, think they are marvellous compared with the UK ones.

BTW, GodwinsJ , you state when you started teaching, but how many years did you spend in UK classrooms?

 

 

[Debra]

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[Teamedup]

KathyC, isn't the point that these things are not legal in France. That they are done, is quite beside the point really. Look at homework in primary school, that little law has been on an incredible bit of elastic since they passed a law to stop it.

 

 

As for teacher training - an Inspector for the Academie de Nantes told me once that they did not train teachers to teach in a child-centred way like they do in the UK. From what I have seen amongst colleagues & the children's teachers there seems to be a lot of emphasis on presenting the class with information which has to be learnt by rote & is then tested ad nauseam. Little seems to be explained in a fashion that means knowledge can be broken down, assimilated & understood nor does there seem to be any provision for teamwork or the sharing of knowledge.

 

We have seen very few teachers who have done other than present their lessons and believe me, I have been told that if my child has not understood then that was his problem. I was always so thankful that there was the odd teacher who did care whether he had understood or not. Our youngest could not believe the difference when he went to school in the UK, he found it like night and day.

 

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="viva"]

Try considering the teachers position for a

moment. By sticking up for your child, if he / she is misbehaving ,

(even in the privacy of your home) you are sending out a signal which

undermines the teacher.

Whether it is the schools or the parents, I have found French

children to be far more polite , respectful and indeed happy than many

of their contemporaries in the UK. As I stated on another post, I know

which children I would rather have round at my house, French every time.

If the majority of French parents are happy with French schools, I

can see why French teachers must dread having UK parents (

not necessarily their children) at the school.

[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly with these sentiments.

[Debra]

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[Viv]

[quote user="DebraA64"]

Who says you have to protest about the methods used in front of your child?  I wouldn't, and never have, undermined a teacher's authority in this way.  I have however made my concerns known to a teacher in private, had a reasoned discussion about them and been satisfied with the answers and resolutions given. The tone of some of the posts is that this may not be possible in France as it's not done to question the teacher in any way.  Are you really, seriously saying that one should just accept whatever a teacher does to your child for the sake of not undermining the teacher's authority?

No, I'm not saying that at all, all the teachers at my daughters school are approachable but all of them appear to consider what is good for the school /class as a whole rather than one child. But than can tell the difference between a little monkey and one with SEN. 

 

My children are well behaved, polite, mature for their ages and I've had comments to this effect from people both in France and in the UK.  They've never been badly behaved when they were at school.   I have also been in the situation of being unsatisfied after dicussion with a teacher and was left with no option other than to withdraw my children from school.  I withdrew my children because I didn't agree with certain teaching methods and though the head teacher agreed with me, these methods couldn't be changed in time to benefit my children. 

My eldest had SEN in the UK and a statement. But I felt that this was not being met, hence my reasons for home education .

Why do you seem to assume that my children will be unruly, badly behaved and that I will also act like that and challenge the teacher's authority in front of my children?  All because I asked how one would deal with the situation where one wasn't happy about something when the attitude seems to be that the teacher cannot be questioned in any way?  I'm asking the question here, from experienced parents of children at school in France, so that I might have some tips on how to deal with a potentially tricky situation.  I've had no such tips - only suggestions that I shouldn't even think of questioning any methods a teacher might use and perhaps should revise my decision to move to France!  Give me strength!

I am not assuming anything about your children Debra, but you seem to be already assuming that things will go wrong ;

[/quote]

[Debra]

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[Debra]

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[tetley]

I'm not sure that not questioning teachers is correct....we went to a parents evening not long after my children started in September.  There had been an incident that my daughter had told me about...a boy had been pulled off his chair by the teacher and he had got hurt.  The parents all had a shouting match with the teacher because they wanted to know what had happened (her portrayal of events was slightly different to what I had been told..but who knows, I wasn't there!) the parents all ranted and raved about the kids having a tropical foods week as well!! lots of flaying arms..and then we got to the introduction of the class starting english lessons..well!!! my husband and I tried our best to keep up but were totally lost.  The parents seemed to have alot of say.  We seem to be riding this year out, watching all developments and dealing with things as they come up.  I would say we have an open mind? From working in primary schools in uk I know what should be expected of my children(re;behaviour in class), and it helps with structuring their homework and I know how important the simple things are ie;reading,encouragement etc. The things my children tell me take me back to my school days..I am in my mid thirties..and I loved school..they love school...actually I don't think I would say love..they enjoy going to school.  I think so far, we have all gained positively from the children being in a french school....

[Teamedup]

well!!! my husband and I tried our best to keep up but were totally lost. 

 

I don't suppose that you are alone in that Tetley.

 

[KathyC]

Presumably one moves to France because one likes/loves/admires the country and its people. (Amongst other reasons) Presumably one prefers what one has seen of France and its people to what one knows of the UK.(Or otherwise why bother to relocate-surely not just for a large house and land!). French people are the product of the French education system as are the British of theirs.It seems to me to follow logically that an educational system that produces people who are preferred to one's own countrymen must be doing something right.

The trouble with discussing educational policy and methods with parents is that they relate everything to their own children and what is best for them(understandable to a certain extent) rather than what is best for a class group overall. As has previously been said, a teacher is responsible for the whole class and what is best for the majority.If a parent is always looking to criticise this then the child is likely to pick up on it even when it is not expressed openly. There is a good deal of research that shows that education is most effective when teachers and parents are heading in the same direction. This can only mean the parent following the teacher's path; the teacher cannot follow the various paths of 20/30 parents.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="DebraA64"]

I'm asking the question here, from

experienced parents of children at school in France, so that I might

have some tips on how to deal with a potentially tricky

situation.  I've had no such tips - only suggestions that I

shouldn't even think of questioning any methods a teacher might use and

perhaps should revise my decision to move to France!  Give me

strength!

[/quote]

"I'm asking the question here, from experienced parents of children at school in France"

I suppose I could say something trite like"don't ask questions to which

you might not like the answer" but that would be both rude and

unhelpful.

As an experienced parent (an oxymoron if there ever was one) of

children at school in France,  I would say that it is impossible

for me or (I suspect)  anyone else to make any generalisations

about how to deal with your children's teachers. For our part we have

found the educational experience here to be entirely satisfactory and

enjoy a close and mutually productive relationship with our children's

teachers. They din an education into our offspring; we help them out

when it comes to teaching the little horrors English language as is now

required by law (the language bit - it doesn't have to be English).

It has been my experience that teachers here will respond quite happily

to questions from parents: they do not respond so well to being

challenged on their methods by those that they regard as untrained or

unqualified. My children did not go to school in the UK (aside from

three months of nursery for the elder) so I have no experience of that

system. Not since I left it, anyway.

[Debra]

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[Debra]

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[Jo53]

[quote user="KathyC"]

Presumably one moves to France because one likes/loves/admires the country and its people. (Amongst other reasons) Presumably one prefers what one has seen of France and its people to what one knows of the UK.(Or otherwise why bother to relocate-surely not just for a large house and land!). French people are the product of the French education system as are the British of theirs.It seems to me to follow logically that an educational system that produces people who are preferred to one's own countrymen must be doing something right.

[/quote]

I wrote a reply to this but only the quote got posted. Probably just as well.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

"When you say they don't respond well to being challenged on their

methods - do  you mean if I didn't like them smacking my child, whether

it be with a hand or ruler, they would not like to be challenged about

this? "

I doubt they would, given the law as it stands. I would have little

hesitation in involving the authorities if I thought that a teacher (or

any other adult for that matter) were hitting my child.

This is what my original question was about - not teaching methods

Nonetheless, these were brought up - I believe that you said that you

withdrew a child from school as you were unhappy about the teaching

methods being employed: I doubt very much that an action such as this

would be viewed benignly here. From what little I know, home education

can be practised in France, but it is something of a trial by ordeal.

'Untrained or unqualified' - does this mean that all teachers in France

assume that any training or qualifications one has become

irrelevant once you are a parent of a child in their charge, or just

that they consider British parents' qualifications/training to be

irrelevant?

Both, as far as I can see. Professional titles such as "Doctor" or

"Engineer" seem to engender some deference, though I cannot say that

for "all" teachers in France as I haven't met them all.

You are quite right: people will have and have had different

experiences. I can only reiterate that ours has been an extremely happy

one. As far as I can see our children are getting a good education from

the

school and, I think, at home (they are learning reading, writing and

usage & abusage in English from their awesomely unqualified

parents).

Most people (as Viva says) are perfectly happy with education in

France. It may not encourage "education through discovery" (a strange

concept: are we expecting our offspring to develop for themselves the

works of Shakespeare and Newton? I had thought that one of the more

notable features that distinguised humans from the rest of the animal

kingdom was that we could learn from other peoples experiences; that

is, we could be educated), and it certainly doesn't seem to be in

anyway cutting edge (interactive whiteboards are things that happen to

other people), but in general it delivers plenty of  functionally

literate & numerate people plus enough "high fliers" to make the

country work.