DRIRE Failure LPG Range Rover

[Washy]

Long message,same as posted on Total France,with a couple of obvious corrections: re Carcassonne DRIRE and the man's unacceptable attitude. 

Well it was with great hope that we set the alarm for 7am to get down to the DRIRE at Carcassonne, we had long drive down snowy mountain roads, but maybe today we would come back with our French number plates. Gathering the information had taken a few weeks.

We arrived early, at 9.45, I saw a man with German king cab truck outside with a folder and a line of several trucks and coaches behind the building. I asked the german man if there was a queue, he thought not as the man seemed to be taking people at random…..as another british car arrived I decided to make my presence known in the office. In fact I went in and sat down as I am partially disabled and cannot stand for too long. The Job’s Worth inside was lecturing a couple about the length of their vehicle, the german man came in as well, probably thought I was queue-jumping. The DRIRE official dealt with another truck driver then the german. The german man also had a lecture,something about the weight and length and after many calculations he tore up his cheque and left…..I was still sitting there after over an hour when it became obvious people who had arrived after me were being dealt with. When the English man who arrived after me was dealt with I intervened and asked why I had had to wait over an hour. The official’s answer was that he knew my problem was going to take an hour or more and he wanted to deal with all the people who would only take two minutes!!!! Well of course I argued back that if he had dealt with me an hour ago…etc.etc….all to no avail.

I was in great pain by this time and could no longer sit down, nor could I walk easily with my crutches, inevitably I cried, by this time the tiny office was full of people including another English woman who was also dealt with very quickly. Then someone from the mairie of Limoux arrived with a brand new snowplough and of course he was put in front of everyone else. I could see the time creeping up to the dreaded 12 noon and I was really upset. I was in tears so had to go out to join my husband outside. The officious man came over and said he would deal with us next. He kept calling over people to translate for him, but I am a fluent French speaker and felt really insulted by this. He liked an audience. He opened the back doors without asking and fiddled with the seat belts muttering something.

Eventually he asked us to open the bonnet, 2 seconds later he said “Stop…non non non GPL…non non non ….impossible en France….” I explained that I had ticked the ‘essence’ and ‘LPG’ boxes on the form supplied, he said that an LPG unit not fitted in France was unacceptable. He said we had to take out the complete system, disabling it was not enough it had to be taken out, out, out, completely, no iffs or buts. I said that it was to a European standard, he quoted a number to me I had no idea what this was. The tears flowed again as this was the last straw.

He refused to go on with the inspection and went inside and started with another client. I went in to tell him I had all the paperwork for the LPG conversion and it had already had two services in France, and no one had commented on it, they even had replacement parts on the shelf, he changed his attitude then. He telephoned the owner of the LPG service centre in Narbonne who he seemed to know. When he came off the phone he said that we could have the unit modified there for about 1400euros, then he could go on with the test. I said that we did not want to pay that money for the conversion if he would then fail the car on something else. He still refused to tell us if there was anything else he might find wrong, I said he probably had several things to look at as he had originally said he would need an hour to do my inspection. He refused to speak to me at first then he started to lecture me about how dangerous my car was and that English norms were substandard and that I was lucky that he was not immediately impounding my car or giving me a time limit to fix it, he told me to go away (!) as he wanted to finish the ….yes you have guessed it the last couple before lunch…..I was tearful again and then the other couple started shouting at me for being aggressive (?) which I certainly was not, told ME I had to be patient, (i had been there for nearly three hours!), and started condemning me for driving an ‘illegal’ car. I was just distraught. Then of course the inevitable questions from both, ‘Why do I want to change the number plate anyway?’…I explained I lived in France….he then said have the car registered to my UK address…so I had to repeat that I lived in France and had retired there…this was received with a long intake of breath from him and a longer remark from the other couple, then of course ‘Why do all you English want to come and live here we have enough problems”. He then started talking in patois with his audience of French who all took his side and started laughing at me.  I could not cope with this any more and sat outside.  During all this he took my original V5 'in case he had to condem my car'?????I have written this down as I do intend to complain about his attitude when I have decided whether I am going to put myself through this again or sell our two cars, even though we bought LHD to avoid some of this trouble. Without opening up a complete can of worms on this topic I would add that his attitude towards an arab man was even more appalling.

I bought a load of choclate and came home, I have been looking for the paperwork for the LPG ever since, but I gave the UK company a ring anyway. They were fantastic and said that everything they did was fitted with a ‘European norm unit’, they told me where to look for the number etc. and also told me that the change to the norm R67 was to R67/01 and that was just a small red plastic covering on the release valve to show if it had ever blown and then it could be dangerous.(I feel I may have been being 'stitched up when he rang the GPL service centre and quoted me 1400 euros???)  He told me to prepare to say to this horrible man when I saw him that although the norm had changed, and no one was being asked to bring their cars back to be changed if they had been fitted prior to the change.

I feel a bit happier now but I still think the DRIRE man was playing games with me. I am sure there are other people out there who have had the misfortune to meet this man from DRIRE in Carcassonne. If anyone has any advice about the LPG situation I would appreciate hearing from them.

[Washy]

Hi Albi, thanks for these comments which I will take action on as soon as I get a definite answer from him.

I have had today to sit and gather information on this matter.  First of all he is famous for this attitude, mainly towards foreigners, although he has upset a french woman in our village. I have heard similar tales from three people I know locally, all women as it happens.

I will ask for reasons in writing, as I am ringing him tomorrow.  We had the Certificate of Conformity back from Land Rover France with only two things marked on it as not conforming, emmissions and headlights, both verified now to meet EU standards.  So we were not prepared for the complete onslaught on other things, most of which he refused to disclose???

I have been in contact with the company that fitted the LPG system and they are sending me a letter stating that the items and work were to EU standard R67 which the DRIRE man quoted to me.  This was superceded by R67/1 in 2001 as a standard, a small red plastic cap being fitted to the relief valve.  No cars were recalled because of this small change, so I do not see how he can insist of R67/1?  He said he could not see any numbers on the unit - my husband found them today not hidden at all.

He also denied seeing an engine number we have photographed this and noted it down, all clearly in view. 

Another potential problem I am trying to avoid is that the VIN number is in the american position of on the door - I am contacting Land Rover Paris, who have been fantastic, to ask if they would send me an e-mail or letter stating that this is acceptable in France.

My next contact with him is by phone at his request, to tell him I have found all the paperwork for the GLP system, so I will ask for the reasons for failure in writing.  He didn't actually say the car had failed as he would not go any further after he looked at the GPL system, so I think he is playing games with me. 

I will not go in there alone next time, I will take a french friend with me, or how do I get hold of a 'hussier' please? When I have completed our two cars I will make a formal complaint, however one does that?

Thanks again for your comments. I feel much better today aothough I am annoyedI lost a night's sleep last night.

[Me0wp00]

i bought a LHD LPG car in the UK but it was fairly easy to get through the registering process. Except when it went for a controle technique prior to going to the prefecture I had to supply the GPL paperwork including certificate of conformite for the GPL alone, luckily it had been fitted in france and so wasn't a problem and I had the paperwork, I know other people who didn't have the certificate and had to go to a special GPL garage who checked the installation and issued a certificate.

A word of advice, when you get it on to french plates, make sure the carte grise shows essence and GPL otherwise you'll come a cropper when it comes to the controle and also some departments give you 50% reduction of the tax and others 100%. Mine gives 100% but they mucked up with the carte grise and when I took it back they then sorted the problem and refunded my tax.

Quite nice :o)

Why are you going to the drire if land rover have given you a certificate ??? Just get a controle done on it and go straight to the prefecture.

[Washy]

Thanks MeOwPooo, I am in less of a rage now.  I have received a copy of the original certificate from the LPG fitters in the UK, it is a european compliant unit.

Great information about the Carte Grise, I also knew nothing about the 'Pastille Verte', for GPL cars.  I read in another posting that it is essential if you are going to drive your GPL car in some towns.

I was summoned to DRIRE after my paperwork went to the Prefecture.  I already had the controle and the partial certificate and I included all this paperwork.  Now I am faced with this horrible man, who seems to make life difficult for anyone who does not have a french car, has an LPG car, is a woman and is disabled.

Anyway I will not give up. I am supposed to ring him tomorrow.  I have met so many people now around here who are in fear of him and who he has upset.

 

Washy

 

[Me0wp00]

The pastille vert is more for *clean* cars, in certain towns you aren't allowed into the city centre unless you have a pastille, my little clio and my mums hyundai we're issued with a pastille and now my GPL mondeo estate. I haven't been anywhere where the pastille made a difference yet though, also I must look up about driving in Paris, some of the tunnels have no GPL signs on them, whether that means we have to divert or just switch it onto petrol I'm not sure, think it's the safety aspect of if it ignites, bit like the chunnel.

I'm busy looking for an adaptor at the moment so I can take mine to the uk, its french fitted so need french to uk, why can't they all be universal *sigh*

dont give up and have courage against the nasty man

[Washy]

Well MeowPoo I think I am losing the will to live let alone fight this man.  We went to the GPL authorised garage today, the one the man from DRIRE telephoned (?).  He actually did not have a kind word to say about the man who he agreed awful and very fussy.  He gave us an estimate for the work, i.e. changing the LPG tank, as just adapting the existing would not be acceotable to DRIRE, cost £1500, which is about what DRIRE had estimated.  Then the garagiste asked what DIRE had said about the petrol tank ?  I had no idea as he had not mentioned it.  According to the garage owner the petrol tank had been removed to put in the gpl tank, as the tank was not homologated and not French this would not be acceptable to DRIRE.  So the garage rang the man at DRIRE and had the phone on speaker phone.  He pointed out the non conforming petrol tank and he admitted he had not noticed it and agreed that it would not be acceptable.  He had no idea I was there and said he would tell me when I rang him.  So the estimate went zooming up to 2500 euros to change the two tanks and provide a protective 'ski' to the underside of the tank which he said was also compulsory for 4 x 4 cars.

While we were there the garage owner who has previously done our GPL services went all over the car to check that DRIRE could have no other surprises in store for us.  It seems that as long as everything has an E number other than the British E number(!) which is E2 then it is OK...so I blame Tony Blair for all this...... Seat belts were E4 - Italy, but the headlights were E11 - had had no idea which coutry this was....but at least it was not E2.....

So I think we are giving up.  I hate to do it because I really wanted to get this car through this test but 2500 euros to spend on an old 1992 Range Rover is too much, we are not rich and only have it because it was comfortable for the long journeys to and from France when we were just visiting our property.  As I speak my husband is looking through Land magazine for a french Land Rover so that we can tow our beloved Range Rover back to the UK to sell, pity but nevermind.

[Richardbk]

 The problem with LPG conversions is that there us no  European installation standard, so even if the unit is a European standard there is no standard for actually fitting them - in the Uk you can DIY. In France LPGs conversions have to be installed by specialist fitters. SO from the technical side somehow you will need to get a certificate to say that the installation comes upto the French standard. This will have to come from a French fitter - how much they will charge for this I have no idea. I would do a round of various fitters and see whether there are prepared to check it over and write out a certificate. This is the exact same as if you did a DIY gas fitting in the house, you would need to get a certificate from a certified installer.

best regards

 

Richard

[Vienne_Billygoats]

Now this is an interesting point!

"Why are you going to the DRIRE if land rover have given you a certificate of conformity??? Just get a controle done on it and go straight to the prefecture"

Can anyone else confirm that this is a valid route that has worked for them aswell??

DRIRE spell hassle for me too, and I have a full house of CoC's, so the CT and the Prefecture should be satisfied on this count...

Any further experiences/advice gratefully received.

PS, Washy, why not go to another DRIRE? and avoid that awful chap? - Good luck & keep the 4*4

Mark B

[Me0wp00]

Ho hum washy,

I'd do exactly what Richard said and try a different gpl garage, I can understand it not being worth it for that amount of money but it's so frustrating. My car was a french installation and I don't think they changed the petrol tank but I did have problems with the computery bit when I first bought the car and had to have the whole of the front part of the system replaced but that was 670E and a newish car so acceptable.

Hubby himself has many vehicles and is getting very frustrated by the french garages, all makes too they seem to want to do everything their way and charge through the nose for it, when we first came 3 years ago they were very reasonable and it was easier to put it in the garage than diy whether its the massive influx of brits putting their noses out of joint I don't know.

Can you try another DRIRE ?

don't give up :o)

And Vienne, we have just got a uk renault laguna registered today we went to the tax office, got the tax form and went to the prefecture with that, coc and controle technique, 10 mins later we walked out with the carte grise.

[Vienne_Billygoats]

MeOWp000,

Thanks for that advice, I will try that approach. 

Silly question - The controle technique is obviously granted initially on the UK number plates that your car rolls up in? Right?

So does the Prefecture then amend this document to reflect your new French registration number thereafter?

By the way, which department are you in?, I am sure that this is not a critical point, but useful info nevertheless.

Do the Prefecture keep very many of the documents that you have to present?

Thanks for your confirmations so far,

Mark B

[Me0wp00]

Yes they grant your CT on your old reg but on all 4 cars I've put through so far they usually keep the vin number as the main record and as far as I can remember without going out in the cold the CT sticker doesn't have any vehicle reg on it anyway.

Some CT centres wont do the test without the certificate of conformity.

I'm in Dept 36 and I've never had any problems with any of the cars, although I would say don't go to the mairie deal direct with the prefecture and it'll save alot of time. My prefecture is open all day without closing for lunch and I find I go at midday, dont have to pay parking then and its empty but don't go on mondays as everyone and their mothers seem to be there.

They keep all the paperwork, Id advise taking copies if you want but they will keep the originals.

The invoice showing your address and the Controle paperwork they give back but they also need to see CDS or passport.

Then they keep the tax form,COC, original car invoice and the form you fill in requesting the registration.

The Controle expirary date is then transferred onto the new CG.

I'm about to start registering some vans and motorbikes in the next few months and I'm sure they will provide a challenge as none of them will confirm to any COC :o(

HTH

Pippa

[Vienne_Billygoats]

Fantastic Pippa, there is no more information that I could ever need now!

I feel more confident, so roll-on 1* LPG (LHD) Land Rover, 1* Diesel (RHD) Land Rover, and who knows what else - my Ginetta G15 and Clan Crusader?. I will never get CoC's for them...

Many thanks once again

mark B

[Miki]

Some CT centres wont do the test without the certificate of conformity.

Not sure about that Pippa? We have used CT stations in many places in France (not all depts obviously) but you can ask for a CT weekly if you want (waste of money but...) never ever been asked for a C o C at a CT place and in fact on cars over 4 years old, have never gone to DRIRE until the CT has been gained, because it would be a waste of time, as the DRIRE will want the CT before issuing a COC, if indeed you want a COC from the DRIRE and not from the manufacturers representative in France. Are you talking of specific models in the case you quote ?

I'm about to start registering some vans and motorbikes in the next few months and I'm sure they will provide a challenge as none of them will confirm to any COC :o(

You will soon be a regular at the DRIRE then !! Good luck....

 

[Me0wp00]

Miki

RE CT wanting COC here in dept 36 and surrounding areas (23 and 87) many friends and myself have had to have COC for the controle techniques, we have recently found one centre that doesn't need them but that's after 3 years of registering cars, La Souterraine, Grands Chezeaux and one of the Argenton CT's all need COC's. I think this might be because many of the V5s don't have the type and series number on.

the makes of cars we've got through vary from toyota's, fords, renaults, peugeots, hyundai's and vauxhalls but we have gone to the manufacturers for the COC rather than go to the DRIRE and get caught up in other problems. You are right I will be a regular to the DRIRE in the future as my husband tends to leave all the paperwork to me !! :o(

[Simon]

Could you not just remove the LPG and go back to straight petrol?

Regards

S

[Washy]

Getting nowhere on the LPG situation at the moment as there is only one other garage qualified in the Aude to do homologated GPL fittings and that is near to the DRIRE in Narbonne.  I went to the one in Carcassone and he seems to know the DRIRE guy very well.  French friend is going to ring an LPG garage in Perpignan (66) tomorrow to see if I can get a better quote or go out of departement to have it checked.  Same french man also rang the prefecture to register a complaint about the attitude of the man at DRIRE, I will be making a formal complaint when this is all over, whatever the outcome.

We also have a Land Rover to change to french plates, it is not lpg, but does not have the original engine so I do not know if we are even going to bother with DRIRE.  It is our old workhorse here for towing on site mainly, will probably give it to my son to drive back in the summer.

My problem at present is playing for time.  I am worried that the man from DRIRE will put a time limit on our taking the car out of the country and inform the Gendarmes as he was telling the arab man that day.  He gave him a month to do the work or else.

Does anyone know if there is an equivalent of a SORN declaration in France?  We could do this and to the car back to the UK if necessary.

[Richardbk]

http://www.cfbp.fr/?p_idref=887 provides a list of GPL installers in france.

I note that there are a couple in 11 and 66 but it might be worth going to toulouse area where there are a lot more.

regs

 

Richard

[Me0wp00]

I've looked at my paperwork and the garage that issued my COC for my gpl was a Baruteau Sarl, 34 Route minervoise in Carcassonne, but this was back in 2003 but was for the initial installation in 97. I suspect this is probably the guy you've already been to ;o(

Bon chance me thinks :o(

[Washy]

To Vienne Billlygoat above, please let me know how you get on with the LPG Land Rover, and the RHD diesel one.  Removing the LPG system was given to us as an option but then I suppose if it was replaced after the DRIRE report we would be illegal.

We have almost decided to go ahead with the expensive (2500euros), changes to the lpg and petrol tanks on the Range Rover,and at least have one legal car to drive around in, it is after all our cherished, oldest, most comfortable car.

Today we looked over the Land Rover RHD diesel, checking for E2 numbers which the DRIRE in Carcassonne seems to hate, E2 is for the UK.  Sure enough all the windows are stamped E2...I expect he will have a fit when he sees them.  The windscreen has no number and the sun roof is E11, does anyone know which european country is E11???  Apart from that everything else looks fairly standard but the engine has been changed....so we may have another nightmare. With the LR papers we will take them to the Prefecture, not send them via the Mairie in the village.

MeowPoo, yes I am aware of the garage you mention, the only other GPL authorised garage in our area is REP Auto in Carcassonne, this is the one we know and the one we will use, even if I think he seems to have a special relationship with the man from DRIRE.

We have 'Bull Bars' (I hate them....) on the Land Rover, should I take these off before attempting another DRIRE visit?

Also, does anyone know whether the number of seats is registered on the Carte Grise, as we have a full set of back seats for the LR but do not know wheher to put them in or not.

I love this forum.......someone always knows the right answers without me having to ring the UK.  I would be lost without this.

 

[Anna]

"Also, does anyone know whether the number of seats is registered on the Carte Grise, as we have a full set of back seats for the LR but do not know wheher to put them in or not."

Yes, it is. See (S.1) on the Carte Gris. We have just registered a Peugeot 205 van and 405 GRD Saloon and they both have number of seats registered.

Also re Control Tech., we will now take our Carte Gris(es) back to our CT testing station and they will issue new paperwork showing our new French numbers and French address, as stated on our Carte Gris, FOC, I believe.

By the way, we did not require COCs for our CT (Dept.24).In fact, as both our vehicles are more than 10 yrs old, a Cert of Conformity cannot be issued. Instead we had to obtain a Cert of Identity from the maker of our vehicle (in our case, Peugeot, Paris), which was slightly cheaper than the COC.

Another point to remember is that you must have a CT not older than 6 months to obtain your Carte Gris, otherwise you will be required to have another CT done!

[Dave&Olive]

I have read this posting from the start of the first 6 page posting .

 If something like this was giving me that much  ****. I would look for an other direction to come from.

The reason I have watched  this posting so intently is because I am a qualified mechanic must admit I have got the lot city & guilds, t 4 exams mimi, amimi, and a uk gas conversion ticket for my last job as a brewery fitter/ gas fork lift truck mechanic.

      It looks to me like you are up against the wall and have 2 options pay the money.  orrrrrrrr

       Find a remote country lane and buy a box of matches.

remember you moved to france if like me to get away from stress, so.........

will get slagged for this but by now I am used to it

                  Dave      and sorry

 

[Washy]

Hi all,

I did not expect this thread to go on so long but I and others must have gathered very important information.

Dave and Olive, yes I must admit we thought of pushing the car off the mountain.

A french friend of ours telephoned the Prefecture and really made a strong complaint about this man at DRIRE, he gave his name and stated that he had many ex-pat friends who were having problems with the man's attitude, the person at the Prefecture took all the details and logged the complaint but encouraged us to write in, which as I said I will do when I have got my cars through. This was on Monday.

Yesterday afternoon we decided to go ahead with the work and grit our teeth to get the Range Rover through at least as it is a well cared-fro and cherished car.  I had to ring the garage, of course they were pleased, money money money....Then I rang DRIRE, he was a nice a pie, sickly so (obviously I suppose). 'I am only here to help you Mrs W., not to make problems....'yuk! He was even trying to be humorous, so I told him we had a Land Rover to do as well, Oh no, he said I hope that is not GPL as well.'  It is not, so he said I should have no problems.....we shall see.....next episode soon. 

Oh thanks above for the comments re the seats, we do not have a Carte Grise of any sort to refer to so now we know.

I also dared to ask DRIRE about the Bull Bars - Pare-bouffe (?spellng), of course they are illegal if not an original fitting to the vehicle, yipeeee I can get him indoors to remove it!