Partly refurbished properties?

[Turnip]

Hi,

Since I have started looking for a retirement property I keep coming across the term "Partly renovated."

I am beginning to wonder what sort of stories lie behind such a term, apart from the obvious ones such as death, divorce or illness:

Could it be that someone took on a project that was beyond their ability, lack of funds, dreams of living in France turned sour etc?

Perhaps many of the people involved in "partly renovated" are the many whose dream of living in France has not matched the reality of the situation and who are the sort of people one never sees featured in the many TV programmes devoted to moving overseas. There is probably a site somewhere that reflects the reality of the situation by giving a more accurate account of the successes and failures among tyro expats. Sadly, there will be many who will be seduced by television into taking on life changing decisions for which they are not equipped, thus contributing to the many properties for sale that are "partly renovated."

[Tresco]

Hi turnip.

Searching for a house for friends over the last 9 months or so, i've come across nearly all the factors you mention (and combinations of them) given as reasons for partly finished renovations.

Some very sad tales, and weary, weary people. Families of 4/5 basically living and sleeping in one room, 'runaway' husbands and wives etc.

It's very sad for these people, but while some of these houses are a mess, (i've seen some shockers, where you would basically have to start again) you could be lucky enough to find one where all the major structural, electrical and plumbing work is done to a high standard, at a price which does not reflect the amount of money spent.

tresco

 

 

[Patf]

I would guess that the most common reason is running out of money. Is there anyone whose renovations cost LESS than they estimated? We have spent more than we intended, but the house was habitable at the start. I would think that people under - estimate the cost of labour here. Pat.

[Dave&Olive]

On our property search I would say that min 75% of the property we viewed was partly refurbished property, some wonderful properties spoilt by add hoc diy novices that think they have added value to the buildings only for me to say this is going to cost us x pounds to rip it out and start again.

       I kept asking the estate agents " Why is this up for sale ? " His reply was always the same " Divorce " " Divorce " " Divorce " whats happening in the uk he said is everyone getting Divorced. I turned down some wonderful property because how could you follow the electrical wiring diagram of spaghetti junction from a novice without a map

               dave

[letrangere]

The few partly refurbished places we looked at were all over-priced, some not far off what you would pay for a fully restored place.  Just because there's a new roof, a few replacement beams and perhaps a couple of cheap new kitchen cupboards some sellers think they can charge the earth.  It's usually pretty obvious they're bailing out and keen to recoup their losses fast. 

I've often read that when renovating you should take the initial estimate and then double it.  But Pat makes a very interesting comment about how much can be spent doing up what may have been a fully restored place.  This is something few of us expect, I'm sure.  M

[Plato comes homePlato]

Hi there are plenty of English faux builders and tradesmen  as well as some qualified ones feeding off English buyers.....and some of the work I have seen is appalling and ignorent and unsympathetic but because pommies can't or will not learn to speak French assez bien they are captive to this away from home rip off area. There are lso plenty of faux English "estate agents' having their reno's done free by providing you lot as fodder by 'advising you of whom to use" . One such parasite lives not too far from Limoges but there are plenty of other such 'experts' from the UK here to help you with "free' advice.  

My suggestion?...get at least three quotes from local French builders and ask their suggestions BEFORE buying..better to pay (not bludge off them) each one than spend untold wasted thousands. Signs like salty walls and floors can be seen by anyone ...painted walls on older buildings mean a strip back as these walls needed to breathe...and so on. NEVER only get an english speaking quote, ask around for good locals (assurance companies, Mairies, Notaires , building suppliers etc). Compare them and it is better to hire a local to translate than to be unsure.

I have no problems at all with migrant workers earning a living but parasiting on them is different. The elsewhere mentioned rule of thumb of allow "twice" is allow twice the cost of the house for renovations....but the only way to be certain is to have loccal advice BEFORE buying. Use a Brit as you will that's your right but to renovate without local advice aaand simply accept price and advice by a new chum builder not weaned on this style of work is foolhardy. As well you will make a far better impression on the local environment which will help you and them too.

The normal reason for 'uncompleted properties' lies in what I have written above and I am not writing without experience in the area. Your money is in your hands..be patient in buying and prudent in choice. Don't buy anything low lying is not bad advice either....water tables in france are high,

Cheers

[Sashabel]

Not all partly renovated properties are on the market because of divorce, lack of funds being disillusioned with French life, etc.  Our longere has just gone on the market after a new roof, fosse, installation of a shower room and sandblasted/repointed exterior walls. 

The reason? When purchased, we planned the work as a long term project for us to escape to after the kids had finished their education in the UK.  But we have now decided to move over permanently this summer bringing our 11 year old son with us.  Because he is mildly dyslexic, we don't want to put him in the French system, so we are moving to an area where he can attend an international school.  It's as simple as that!

Sasha

[Turnip]

Sasha

We were not stating that "all" are due to divorce etc, therefore we appreciate that a minority of people such as yourself have other reasons. Good luck.

[Canardvert]

I, for my sins, work as an agent commercial selling property in France.

We will often come across property that is partly renovated.

It is not always due to divorce, lack of funds, lack of experience that such a property is available.

Very often, it is a property that has been taken on by local owners who have renovated themselves. Perhaps there is a barn to the side of the property that could be incorporated into the main house. Otherwise there may be rooms to finish off. Sometimes the family may need to move due to work or perhaps another baby on the way before their plans are seen through.

Partly renovated properties are not always bad news. To suggest that you nearly always have to rip out and start again is misleading, some of the properties that I come across have been good value, compared to the 'renovated' properties of a similar budget.

If you have a good agent then he will be able to steer you away from poorly renovated properties to ones which represent good value.   

 

[Dave&Olive]

[quote]I, for my sins, work as an agent commercial selling property in France. We will often come across property that is partly renovated. It is not always due to divorce, lack of funds, lack of experienc...[/quote]

 

This is the sort of reply you would expect from an agent

If you have a good agent then he will be able to steer you away from poorly renovated properties to ones which represent good value. 

            BEST JOKE I`VE HEARED THIS WEEK  

their only thought is I am going to make money from this sale regardless

            DAVE

[Will]

Dave, I know it is fashionable to knock agents, but that sort of comment is uncalled for.

[Dave&Olive]

mmmmm. thought about my answer and sorry but there is no such thing as an  honest estate agent , they are out to make their cut on the sale as quick as possible and if this means bending the truth then if thats what it takes they will do it.

          I have bought and sold and renovated a fair few properties in the  U.K. before that I was a H.G.V. fitter and then in sales for a while after that done 18 months in a local estate agents , and  I never ever told a lie and thats the truth, honest.

           dave

Oh and Scotland are going to win on Sunday 47-9 HONEST

[Tresco]

That makes two honest ones then, Dave. You, and Will the Conq

tresco

[Will]

No, I'm not one myself - just married to somebody who works for a French agency.

I'd agree that there are some dodgy agents about - we've all come across them - but didn't think it was fair to welcome Canardvert to the forum with that response to what I thought was a truthful and helpful contribution.

And as for those HGV fitters...

[Alexis]

I agree with Canardvert too.  Very true around here.  Dave must attract trouble.

Don't forget, in this cow pat, a toilet inside is a total renovation

If you have hot water too. . .well!  Chateau.

[Lautrec]

A  GOOD AGENT?????????????????????????? Ha !Ha! Definitely the best joke of the week. Beware of the 'three card trick! This is when they show you two dilapidated old properties, that are really so bad that really makes you shudder and then when you are really down, they show you a half-way decent one, which you jump at;  then you are hooked. So beware, it happens all the time!

[Bobc]

"This is the sort of reply you would expect from an agent

If you have a good agent then he will be able to steer you away from poorly renovated properties to ones which represent good value. 

            BEST JOKE I`VE HEARED THIS WEEK  

their only thought is I am going to make money from this sale regardless

            DAVE"

Dave,

From your postings you are fairly new to France.

My wife works as an Agent Commerciale with a French Immobilier. They both work to the highest standards and advertise, describe and market properties exactly as they are. As others have pointed out there will always be rogue agents.

From your other postings you obviously have a talent for furniture making - perhaps develop this rather than commenting on things outside your experience.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

 

[Dave&Olive]

The guilty always go on to the defensive when faced with the truth ,their  method of defence is to change the subject and to try and make the innocent feel guilty .

    Do I feel guilty , no I sleep at night .

    If estate agents were honest you would not need lawyers and the like when buying a home. ( you don't need one when buying a car because all car sales men are honest )

          good night Vienna

                      dave

[Will]

It's a nice thought Dave, but (at the risk of being accused of going on the defensive) even when agents aren't involved you still need lawyers - particularly in France where a notaire has to oversee the transaction, by law.

And what makes anybody think that all lawyers are honest (again look at the French system where the notaire acts as agent, lawyer and tax collector)? Believe me, not all of them are exactly 100% straight.

House buyers and sellers are often ready to pull a fast one too, whether they use an agent, a notaire, or go private.

Anyway, you've got me worried now. Next time I go to the doctor, or need a car, a TV, a goat or whatever, I'd better see an avocat first.

[Bobc]

"The guilty always go on to the defensive when faced with the truth ,their  method of defence is to change the subject and to try and make the innocent feel guilty ."

Dave,

Assuming that this posting was in response to my reply to you, are you suggesting that my wife and her French registered immobilier partner use dishonest business practices?

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[Bobc]

 

"The guilty always go on to the defensive when faced with the truth ,their  method of defence is to change the subject and to try and make the innocent feel guilty ."

Dave,

Assuming that this posting was in response to my reply to you, are you suggesting that my wife and her French registered immobilier partner use dishonest business practices?

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux "

Dave,

No reply from you - probably not surprising.

If you are going to make contentious postings, then you need to have the information to back them up - which you obviously do not.

Given that you are not working in France, then sweeping statements regarding the honesty of French immobiliers, based on your own experience is fairly flawed. There are bad agents/immobiliers in all countries - equally there are as many reliable ones.

You have a lot to learn about living and working in France, which of course you have yet to discover.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[Canardvert]

Dave,

You have clearly used an agent in the past.

Can I ask, what would you expect a good agent to be able to offer you? You have been willing to approach an agent at some time. What were you expecting from the agent that you did not receive? Obviously every agent has to earn some commission - what level of service do you expect to receive from an agent.

I'm genuinely interested to hear your views as you are obviously quite cynical about the service that an agent can provide...

 

 

[Lizzie15]

Hi.I've bought and sold many times in Uk and only really found one excellent estate agent ,.I've bought a couple of times in France and the estate agents have been fairly accurate and honest ( honest!):

 

[Plato comes homePlato]

(edited by moderators to remove potential defamatory comment)

This real property question comes up in hundreds of differing ways....There are several ways of inveigling one's self  into property sales in France...when you are, instead of being a well trained french agent (ie 4 years study in the subject) an opportunistic Brit or other species ...sadly French "commercial"  regulations opened a door to what was never intended in real property sales.

You set up as an agent with no qualifications relying on ommunity silence to stop being busted.

Or you can work as a "sub agent" preaching ignorence as you learn whilst under the umbrella of another agent or a Notaire

Or you can set up as a commercial agent who is supposed only to sell his own properties or a limited supply of relatives' etc.

This grossly exploited last area gives carte-blanche to manipulation. I have found usually deceptive registrations and assertions to the authorities and a desertion of the intention of the permit. Its a bit like Steptoe becoming an estate Agent. I have also found the French diving under the desk whe questioned as to the statements made by these manipulators when compared with their website sales waffle....

If a commercial agent cannot show CLEAR TITLE and completed purchase to what they are offering better tell them to just shove off....these people are real property fakers...

Some people, nevetheless,  by nature want to help other people whom they see as needy after their own conversions on a road to a real estate Damascus..but the simple fact is that they are as far from being adequate experts as we are from the moon.

Buy From the French or someone who actually holds a licence....before committing yourself to some backyard operator....Notaires sell property ....there are some excellent Notaires all over but I will speak of the narrow band on one of my areas . In Limousin stay with French Agnts or be very circumspect about English "Agents" claiming vast experience in the areas 150 kms radius from from Limoges for example through Rochechouart, Barbadus and through Aix sur Vienne, Angouleme, St Priest etc .....shonks abound who have pitiful experience in real property. Two Notaires I can suggest as decent are Vincent Couret in Rochechouart and Mme Pene le Tranouez in Pompadour...the latter being he most extraordinary Notaire I have ever come across...and her husband Thierry is also a Notaire. She should be on the high court bench!! Brilliant woman and a superb Notaire..In the area of Montauban through to Toulouse and carcassonne there are others of couse...

If some English person offers French real estate in any media DEMAND their personal qualifications be presented and photocopy them.. but then ask their quaifications through studies in french real property that is  in french real estate qualifications (not their wife's or child's) and especially so North of Limoges where if these English shonks/lazy "commercial vendors"  will not get off their tails an supply more detailed information. In that caser  simply go to the local Notaires in the yellow pages and deal directly...seek the vendor via the Notaire and ignore the agents ..they have no leg to stand on..

Cheers

[Bobc]

"Or you can set up as a commercial agent who is supposed only to sell his own properties or a limited supply of relatives' etc.

This grossly exploited last area gives carte-blanche to manipulation. I have found usually deceptive registrations and assertions to the authorities and a desertion of the intention of the permit. Its a bit like Steptoe becoming an estate Agent. I have also found the French diving under the desk whe questioned as to the statements made by these manipulators when compared with their website sales waffle...."

-------------------------

Your knowledge of the role and legal scope of an Agent Commerciale is about as good as your translation of the big white tank with a heating element inside. Take a look at the following links - presumably they are all wrong.

http://www.chauffe-eau.fr/

http://www.services-pros.com/pls/catalogue/portail_prog.pk_catalogue.listearticles?rubrique=2&marque=PACIFIC&etape=2&site=&Selection=&charte=

http://www.wendel.fr/Catalogue/catalogue_C.htm

Your rambling, misleading postings do not help anyone - I cannot understand why the moderators have not pulled the plug on you.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux