is it true that anyone owing a 4 wheel drive will shortly get heavily taxed in the

[Owens88]

[quote user="Quillan"]

. Likewise I don’t really see much of a need for a family of 4 to have a massive bus like people carrier either [/quote]

 

Especially them with no mates or who don't share in the school run !

 

As it happens I now wouldn't buy one, mainly because they are a pig to park in town. (Same reason why the Chryler PT has fallen off the wish list, going OT now), but they do offer 'high' driver positions without the intimidating accroutements.

[Russethouse]

Oddly my Renault Espace was very easy to park - great lock. Used it loads, lugged vast amounts of stuff around it as well as children + friends.

If I win the Euro Lottery tonight I'll buy a new one, if not I'll stick with my smaller Picasso which is quite adequate for my current lifestyle.

 

[Patf]

Another thing I don't like about them is the spare wheel sticking out

at the back. I ran into the back of one once, driving a Ford Escort .

It had stopped suddenly at a roundabout. My  car bonnet was

completely smashed in by their spare wheel in a metal cover - I hadn't

guaged how far it stuck out. They hadn't felt the impact. Pat.

[sid]

I'm not sure that it's the 4-wheel-drive mechanical feature that causes the resentment, but rather it's the perceived threat from the comparitively large size of the vehicle, (usually containing one person), and the knowledge that if you get hit by one you'll come off worse, simply because their bumpers are in a different place and you'll possibly hit other protuberances like bullbars and rear-mounted spare wheels. If one needs 4WD one doesn't have to buy a big vehicle, the feature is available on many cars and estates. Sounded like Prince Charles for a minute there!

You don't need 3 litres of engine (or more) to get to the office or to go to the shops (or the gym)... but you do if you're a professional footballer! Eh?

>> I drove down from Calais yesterday and got a very reasonable 15.4mpg from my Range Rover.

I don't think that a fuel consumption of 30mpg is anything to brag about, but 15 mpg is definitely something to be ashamed of!! You'd be better off on the train, mate.

Since arriving in France I've bought a medium diesel estate and it happily, and regularly, returns 600+ miles to a tankful of gazole, and has never returned less than 50mpg.

Whilst some families with just 2 children do buy people carriers, the vehicle is often the same under the skin as a regular saloon or estate in the same range (for example Renault Scenic and Megane) and they are fairly comparable on performance and consumption. Surely it's families of five or more who appreciate the additional space and perhaps as importantly the ability to carry the associated luggage. These people carriers are built to the same safety standards as cars and at least the bumpers line up correctly etc etc.

Going around vandalising cars is just plain mental!

Happy motoring!

[Quillan]

The type of 4X4 you buy depends on what you want to do with it. There’s a very good film about the Range Rover, it's design and what it was made for. It was actually made for farmers who could not afford both a normal Landrover and a car so they created the Range Rover to be at home on a farm field and to go shopping in. Then of course it became a guppy or was it yuppie thing and Landrover tailored the inside to meet that markets demands but it's still an excellent 4X4 for off roading and has it's own racing section in the AWDC. Surprisingly though people take the engine out, turn it round and mount it behind the front seats to race them. One slight snag is the gear stick is then back to front.

An excellent starter that’s very cheap is the old Jimmy, takes the lumps and bumps in it’s stride, cheap to run, low insurance for on road use and parts are available from breakers. Landrovers are the same and that’s why most ‘A’ class 4X4 racers use the parts from them.

Having 4X4 cars is actually brilliant as they are far safer to drive than any two wheel drive. I am not talking about size and bull bars but just take any four wheel drive car in to a nice field and try skidding it around a bit then do the same in a two wheel drive car, bet I know which one you feel safe in.

There’s loads of nice practicable 4X4 cars around now, you can even get a Fiat Panda or a Kangoo in 4X4 versions as you can the Megane as well. You can then look at the Audi Allroad or the Suberu if you have that sort of money or you can get a Porshe with 4X4 so I guess they will get taxed as well.

You don’t need a massive MPV to cart 7 people around. I drive a Peugeot 307SW which comes with 7 seats, they all come out just like an Espace (and you can rearrange them as well)  and you have all the flight tables etc.

Fuel consumption, well I can beat 12MPG my Bowler does around 2.3MPG flat out but then it’s got 5.6L twin supercharged engine in and does 0 to 60MPH in around 3.1 seconds across a ploughed field. On the other hand I believe the official figures for my 307 at 55MPG on a run but it appears to do a lot better than that at times. Don’t you just love these onboard computer thing’s, I drive to Carcassonne and back and according to the computer I can drive for 50KM further on the remaining tank of fuel than I could when I left Quillan!

At the end of the day cars are really an emotive subject, some people love them others hate them and the rest don’t really give a toss providing it’s got a wheel on each corner and they can get the kids and the shopping in. So you can’t badge all car owners the same just like 4X4 owners either. If you want it and you can afford it then have it. It’s your money, you earnt  it so what you spend your money on is nobody elses business. Do they really think taxing 4X4 will drive them off the street and their prices down I don’t think so. One only has to look at the increase in cars on the road in the UK and the price of fuel, people still buy cars. Bit like fags and booze really, we all complain but people still keep buying them.

If I win the lottery a stretched Hummer will do me fine for popping down the shops and to be honest I wouldn’t give a toss about paying the extra tax. Not to mention my DB9 Vantage (soft top of course) for going down the pub in on Sunday lunch. Sod getting an Espace, you must be joking, get the chauffer to drop the kids of in the Hummer.

[0zeb100ddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue]

Hi

Now that is what I would call a well balanced reasonable opinion. 

[sid]

And that's what it's all about, at the end of the day, our own opinions. I don't think many of us will be swayed one way or the other, but it helps if you can at least see why others may not agree with you.

 

[Daktari]

"Having 4X4 cars is actually brilliant as they are

far safer to drive than any two wheel drive. I am not talking about

size and bull bars but just take any four wheel drive car in to a nice

field and try skidding it around a bit then do the same in a two wheel

drive car, bet I know which one you feel safe in."

An interesting process of deduction Quillan!

For most of us I would suggest that our driving is not done "skidding around a bit in a nice field" - but on the streets & highways where all the evidence suggests that most 4x4's are significantly less safe than "normal" cars due to their higher centre of gravity & mode of construction. Having to swerve suddenly at speed in a 4x4 is much more likely to cause the vehicle to roll than a saloon car, whilst in an accident they are far more likely to cause death or serious injury to the occupants of another vehicle than in a crash between two saloons.

UK insurance companies are very aware of these additional risks (based on statistics not emotional arguments): recent figures from Churchill show that urban

4x4s are involved in 25% more accidents than saloon cars and do far

more damage. Admiral Insurance also recently released figures

showing that 4x4 drivers are 27% more likely to be at fault in the

event of an accident.

I would agree that these arguments don't apply to 4 wheel transmission on a saloon platform, such as the Audi, Subaru or Megane - but the issue not really with these vehicles but the Land-Rover / Toyota / Jeep type "Utility vehicles" that are wonderful as working vehicles on a farm - and totally inappropriate on the road[;)]

[Quillan]

Many people will rmeber the test with a Range Rover on 5th Gear I think it was where it fell over swerving. The thing to keep in mind that that was a Range Rover, other big 4X4s respond differently, not all of them have a high centre of gravity. Just because you sit higher does not mean automatically that the car has a high centre of gravity, there are many factors that come in to play. It is a fact that a 4X4 will not skid as badly as a 2WD car and is more controlable. I sugested a field because people can try it without damaging there car. You can't ban 4X4's from the road, thats silly, how does a farmer, forest worker etc get from one place to another. I do agree with others that if you buy one with no intention of taking it even on to a grass verge there is little or no point. By the way a Jeap Cherakee has quite a low C of G as does the Land Cruiser.

[Brilec]

[quote user="Quillan"]I do agree with others that if you buy one with no intention of taking it even on to a grass verge there is little or no point. [/quote]

Yes there is, how else do you impress the other mums on the school run?

Believe me, this was an answer given to me once. I seem to have lost touch with that particular family now.

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="Brilec"]

Yes there is, how else do you impress the other mums on the school run?

Believe me, this was an answer given to me once. I seem to have lost touch with that particular family now.

 

[/quote]

Bet you were heartbroken [:)] .

[WendyG]

In the UK I need my Freelander to successfully navigate an extremely sharp uphill climb to my home - impossible to navigate up and down in icy conditions.  In France we stay again high up in a very rural position and if needing to make an emergency visit to hospital etc we would be in trouble without the four wheel drive.

The Freelander is actually quite small and compact compared with some of the massive 4x4s and indeed other ordinary cars.

It is also much easier for an elderly arthritic person to get in and out of than some of the ordinary cars.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="WendyG"]

In the UK I need my Freelander to successfully

navigate an extremely sharp uphill climb to my home - impossible to

navigate up and down in icy conditions.  In France we stay again

high up in a very rural position and if needing to make an emergency

visit to hospital etc we would be in trouble without the four wheel

drive.

The Freelander is actually quite small and compact compared with some of the massive 4x4s and indeed other ordinary cars.

It is also much easier for an elderly arthritic person to get in and out of than some of the ordinary cars.

[/quote]

The Swiss (my wife's brother lives there) seem to regard snow tyres as

a far safer way of dealing with icy conditions than simply having 4

wheel drive. Having driven a front wheel drive vehicle so equipped over

there, I would tend to agree: we seemed to be able to get up anything.

I believe in some cantons, snow tyres during winter are compulsory for

reasons of road safety.

[Grumpy]

I have always regarded this forum as a model of courtesy and friendliness until I read this thread! I drive a Hyundai 4x4 and thoroughly enjoy doing so. It's main purpose is for towing a trailer and a caravan. I am most dismayed by the negative comments found here.

It's a gas guzzler! Mine is more economical than my last car - a Subaru Impreza. And a great deal more economical than Jags/Mercs/BMW's etc.

It's intimidating! Why are you intimidated? Does this occur with every other larger vehicle you encounter!

It's unstable at speed! I drive at an appropriate speed and always within the speed limit.

People are more likely to be killed if hit by one! Slow down and don't run people over.

It hogs the road/parking space etc! My Hyundai is narrower than a Mondeo.

Most of the other negative comments come from poor driving, not from the fact that it's a 4x4. If you want to be vitriolic, do so about road rage, poor driving, uninsured cars, drink driving, speeding etc!

[Dotty0]

Well said Grumpy.  Its the same with the ''speed kills'' slogan.  Its not the speed, but the careless person behind the wheel. 

Dotty

[Owens88]

Actually Grumpy I thought that most of the posts were courteous. The debate was a rambling exchange of different views - with spurious arguments and not always relevant facts introduced as the thread progresses. Normal adult conversation really  (smile ).

You highlighted some of the inconsistencies but its not a rational exchange anyway ...!

My guess is that drivers in large vehicles, often with protruberances in unfortunate places, and often not doing any vehicle-related task beyond the competence of any reasonably sized saloon, incite some fear, some envy and other emotions as well.

The term 4*4's is being incorrectly applied when people really mean ...

'unneccessarily large and threatening vehicles used inappropriately '

So goods vehicles, farmers, hobbyists on special routes/land etc. shouldn't feel disgruntled by the views on this thread should they ?

As for taxation, surely it should all be on fuel anyway, not a plethora of little bits serving only to pay for more civil servants ?

See I got the word civil in at the end !

Cheers

[sid]

Very succinctly put, Owens88, and courteous too!

I would just remark to Grumpy, and don't take it personally, that in 25 years of caravanning all over Europe I've never needed anything other than a normal (usually frontwheel drive ) saloon. I'm not one for off-roading with the caravan! [;)]

[Grumpy]

Owen88 - you're right! I have heard quite a lot of anti 4x4 rhetoric and when I read it here, perhaps I over-reacted. My apologies to all concerned; however, I stand by the point that it's the driver that makes a vehicle dangerous.

Sid, you have probably done rather more caravanning than I have but I have found a number of instances where I was very glad that I had 4 wheel drive. Both in the UK and on the continent I have been in situations where a 4x4 was able to cope where a vehicle like yours could not - we have obviously had different experiences!

[darnsarf]

Hi Owens88

Yes, you are right to suggest that because it's heavier and shaped a bit like a brick, a typical 4x4 won't have the same fuel consumption as the same engine in a conventional saloon. It's also true say that some petrol derivatives of 4 x 4s, as a result of having very large petrol engines do suffer from high consumption. My list was included to argue that not all 4 x 4 deserve the bashing they get on fuel grounds. Of course, if we all felt and more importantly, acted in a more environmentally friendly way, then we would all have tiny 900cc cars, returning in excess of 50 mpg and maybe take trains for long journeys. Regardless of the consumption of new SUVs though, older cars can be dreadful environmentally - I think the 2CV is one of the worst offenders but, 'in the round' because driving an older car means a new one doesn't have to be built (the point where the bulk of pollution is created) then maybe to hold onto a car rather than changing it frequently is sound environmentally whatever it is (OK, keeping a low polluting car is better).

My wife had a Discovery (bought 2nd hand) and yes we live in North London and yes, she did use it for the school runs. After my children were mugged or assaulted 4 times it did seem a sensible thing that any parent might do, if they were able.  I don't think it ever went offroad (perhaps truly useful 2-3 times in snowfalls!) She didn't of course need the Disco per se for the school runs and shopping but the car was a fab workhorse/estate alternative with 7 seats for transporting buddies and a huge carrying capacity, a rear zone for the dog and a loading height useful for bad backs. Now we have a house in the lower slopes of  the pyrenees, I wish we still had it, though I don't miss it's roly-poly ride! When we got rid of the Discovery, it was 12 years old (it was 4 years old when we bought it and got rid of its bullbars by the way). We bought a brand new hatchback which does about 40mpg. It looks like we're now much more environmentally sensible but we're not really, in the round.

My main point was that there is a lot of hypocrisy spoken when pointing fingers at 4x4s. Air pollution is a major environmental issue and a bit more car fuel is almost neither here nor there when compared to the damage each of us causes when we pop onto to a Ryanair flight., heat 2 homes etc etc. 4x4s are an easy target but shouldn't become a diversion from the broader more serious issue.

Anyway, the question was about whether a tax will arrive on 4x4s. I suppose it might but would be very hard to classify and probably slightly daft given that there is already a form of tax - car tax (4x4 SUVs are expensive so the tax charge is more) and via fuel tax (at least for those with higher consumption) - but I don't suppose that will stop it happening! Enjoy your RAV4 - though I suspect you mnight not enjoy the acceleration of the smaller diesel engine!