VISITING THE UK

[Tony F Dordogne]

Can't be arrested for no VEL/tax disk.  And it is the excise licence/excise duty as I think it always has technically been called, or at least that was what Gordon B called it today during his budget speech.

But I think that Thomas' husband was lucky - in many areas of the UK if he'd sat in the car (which she hints that he did) while the clampers were trying to tow it, he would have been arrested for either obstruction or conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace.

[Stocky]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

As far as I know it's still the criminal offence that it's always been in the UK, at least from the 1950s to the late 1990s - if you want to argue about being nicked for no VEL or any other car documents you have to do so at a Magistrates Court and that makes the case criminal.

The fact that you don't attract points doesn't make it less criminal.

[/quote]

Until recently it has never been a Criminal Ofence but a licensing offence, like the TV License.  They all appear in Magistrates courts, who were also responsible for issuing Alchohol Licenses to pubs, hardly a criminal offense.  All sorts of cases start off in magistrates courts where the police are not involved, VEL is one, as is TV, hence the belief that all cases at magistrates courts are criminal is a sad misunderstanding.  There has been a change in the law recently re drinking licenses where they are now the responsibility of local councils.  The camera's set up to photo VELs are run by the DVLC and not the police.

Having said that there is a move to criminalise many of the minor offences, this means that a swab can be taken and your dna stored on the PNC.

[Dotty0]

Stocky wrote

Having said that there is a move to criminalise many of the minor offences, this means that a swab can be taken and your dna stored on the PNC.

What is the world coming to.  Surely not for car tax evasion.  About time they started catching the real criminals, and stopped being Gordons tax collectors.

Dotty

[Iceni]

Car tax evasion is a form of theft, we have to pay more because they don't. Are you really saying that police shouldn't persecute/prosecute thieves ? Not that they seem to do much about burglaries anyway.

About time the police adopted "no tolerance" at all levels and local authorities were allowed to keep the fines collected in their areas. Set financial targets and pay car tax police by results.  Or sell the concession to Michael O'Ryanair -  he would make a healthy profit out of it.

John

not

 

[andyh4]

And for all those that complain about French Burocracy, remember this is someone who has fallen foul of the British equivalent and has been able to argue his (weak) side in his mother tongue.

Ignorance of the law is no defence, but when moving abroad it is often forgotten that the rules and regulations are different and few take time out to find out what they are.  Thanks to LF and others there is the possibility to get the basics and avoid the worst that the "system" could throw at you.

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Iceni"]

Car tax evasion is a form of theft, we have to

pay more because they don't. Are you really saying that police

shouldn't persecute/prosecute thieves ? Not that they seem to do much

about burglaries anyway.

About time the police adopted "no tolerance" at all levels and local

authorities were allowed to keep the fines collected in their areas.

Set financial targets and pay car tax police by results.  Or

sell the concession to Michael O'Ryanair -  he would make a

healthy profit out of it.

[/quote]

Like speed camaras?

[Owens88]

>Car tax evasion is a form of theft

Agreed, but much more than that an untaxed car is also very probably an uninsured car, and that often goes with other undesirables - not mot'ed, not safe, driven by somebody happy to be 'on the edge'. The scrote who nearly killed my friend recently was driving just such a car - having a  little race actually.

So, other than minor infringements (a few days late etc.) I would go with the crush-em argument.Lets face it the car tax is small beer compared to the costs of insurance and maintenance, and in the UK you cannot tax an uninsured car.

Cheers

John

 

[Val_2]

This particular type of vehicle is not a cheap vehicle to buy right? So, if it is impounded and then scrapped or whatever because it is deemed not legal,gets damaged or even stolen, will the insurers pay up? Think not if the vehicle wasn't properly re-registered and re-plated in the country of residence if is french insurance. I'm sorry but I have no sympathy if you are not fully legal before leaving this country which you would have been warned about in your paperwork.

[Dotty0]

[quote user="Iceni"]

Car tax evasion is a form of theft, we have to pay more because they don't. Are you really saying that police shouldn't persecute/prosecute thieves ? Not that they seem to do much about burglaries anyway.

About time the police adopted "no tolerance" at all levels and local authorities were allowed to keep the fines collected in their areas. Set financial targets and pay car tax police by results.  Or sell the concession to Michael O'Ryanair -  he would make a healthy profit out of it.

John

not

 

[/quote]

 

Do you honestly think the price of car tax would be reduced if everybody paid.  I seriously don't think so.  Do you think if twice as much alcohol was consumed or cigerettes smoked the government would halve the duty on them? 

Yes the police should prosecute thieves along with all the other criminals, but I don't believe they should be tax collectors.  Perhaps if the presure was off the them to look out for tax evaders, then they might have more time to catch the real baddies in the world.

Dotty

[Tony F Dordogne]

Whether the police should chase people for car tax isn't the point really is it?

Don't comply and get nicked, your problem, no matter which enforcement agency is involved.  I seem to recall that the Police only became involved in this instance because the car driver played up.

And as somebody has already pointed out, no tax usually means other documents are likely to be missing - and if the insurance company can find a way of walking away they will so you'd be making yourself a hostage to fortune if you're untaxed.

It's also worth pointing out that so far we've only heard one biased side of this story - it would be interesting to hear what the enforcers/police/DVLA had to say about it all - and the car in question still has to make it back yet, especially if they have to run down to one of the Kent ports where if they're seen by the cameras looking for this type of thing and stopped by the Police, the driver may not be so fortunate.

 

[Iceni]

[quote user="jond"][quote user="Iceni"]

Car tax evasion is a form of theft, we have to pay more because they don't. Are you really saying that police shouldn't persecute/prosecute thieves ? Not that they seem to do much about burglaries anyway.

About time the police adopted "no tolerance" at all levels and local authorities were allowed to keep the fines collected in their areas. Set financial targets and pay car tax police by results.  Or sell the concession to Michael O'Ryanair -  he would make a healthy profit out of it.

[/quote]

Like speed camaras?
[/quote]

Exactly - whether the speed cameras are immoral, in the wrong places etc are irrelevant arguments. Hit the criminals in their wallets seems a pretty good idea to me.

John

not

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

..... and the car in question still has to make it back yet, especially if they have to run down to one of the Kent ports where if they're seen by the cameras looking for this type of thing and stopped by the Police, the driver may not be so fortunate.

[/quote]

They won't get to run down to one of the Kent ports unless they pay the fines and buy an fresh excise licence.  The DVLA won't release the car to them.

[thomas16]

THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY.  THIS IS ALL AN INNOCENT MISTAKE, WE ARE FULLY ISURED, AND YES I KNOW THAT TAX IS NOT REQUIRED AS IT IS IN WITH THE INSURANCE, THE CAR IS A NEW CAR WHICH WAS IMPORTED IN NOVEMBER 2005, MY HUSBAND SENT THE TAX BACT TO DVLCC SO LEGALLY IT IS STILL TAXED.  WE WILL SORT IT UPON HIS RETURN.

[thomas16]

THE DISCOVERY IS NEW IMPORTED HERE IN NOVEMBER, THEREFORE DOES NOT REQUIRE AN MOT, WE THOUGHT IT WAS LEGAL, AN OVERSIGHT. WE ARE FULLY INSURED AND WE WILL RE REGISTER WHEN HE GETS BACK.  AS FOR TAX WE SENT THE TAX BACK AND HAVE NOT HEARD FROM THEM.  (AS FOR LF POSTINGS MY HUSBAND DOES NOT USE THIS FORUM I DO )THE RETURN WAS AN EMERGENCY.  THE DVLCC HAD NOT INSTRUCTED ANYBODY TO IMPOUND THE CAR, THEY WERE JUST BEING BULLY BOYS EMPLOYED BY TOWER HAMLETS, I HAVE JUST HEARD THAT THEY CAME BACK TODAY WITH A BIGGER VEHICLE TO LIFT THE CAR, SO BASCIALLY THEY ARE OUT TO GET HIM AND HIS CAR, WHY NOT TAKE AWAY THE ABANDON CARS IN THE STREET.  THANKS FOR YOUR KIND WORDS.

[thomas16]

YES I AGREE THERE ARE A HIGH NUMBER OF UNTAXED VEHICLES IN TOWER HAMLETS, AS WELL AS DUMPED CARS, ETC. WHY ARE THESE NOT TAKEN AWAY?  I KNOW THERE IS NO LINK BETWEEN ETHNICITY AND THE DVLA DONT BE SILLY NOW, BUT U JUMPED THE GUN I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS,  READ THE POSTING ILLEGAL PEOPLE.  THE DVLA WERE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR TRYING TO TAKE MY HUSBANDS CAR THE TOWER HAMLET JOBSWORTH CALLED HIS CLAMPERS IN 4 BURLY BIG TOUGH GUYS TRYING TO INTIMIDATE MY HUSBAND AND MY 80 YR OLD DAD, THEN THEY CALLED THEIR MATES IN, TOWER HAMLETS HAS NOTHING BETTER TO DAY.  THE CAR IS FULLY INSURED AND FRANCE WHICH I UNDERSTAND INCLUDES THE TAX, NO MOT REQUIRED AS IT IS A NEW CAR, AND WAS IMPORTED HERE IN NOVEMBER, AND THE DVLCC IS STILL HOLDING A CURRENT TAX DISC FOR US WHICH WE ARE AWAITING REFUND.  AS FAR AS DVLCC ARE CONCERNED HE HAS NOT COMMITTED AN OFFENCE THEREFORE THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED.  THE TOUGH GUYS CAME PAST MY DADS TODAY WITH A BIGGER TRUCK TO TAKE THE CAR AWAY.  BUT ALAS IT IS NOT THERE ANYMORE.  SO WHEN HE GETS BACK WE WILL HAVE TO SORT OURSELVES OUT WE GENUINLLY THOUGHT WE WERE LEGAL.  AS U KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT CARS,  IS IT POSSIBLE TO KEEP THE UK NUMBERPLATE ON OUR OLD E TYPE OR DO WE HAVE TO CHANGE IT.  BY THE WAY PREY TELL ME WHAT THE OTHER OFFENCES MY HUSBAND HAS COMITTED.[8-)

[Opalienne]

I'm not going to go in to the rights and wrongs of this (though I can't understand why you think you can keep an English registered car in France for 5 months before registering it there, and I'm puzzled about the insurance too) but why didn't your husband just move it somewhere else, e.g. an underground car park?   They were bound to come back for it, and now he will have real trouble getting it back without a tax disc........ And of course they will take it rather than the abandoned cars in the street because they know (1) it won't be hanging around the car pound for ever and (2) it's not a cheap car and he will be prepared to pay a considerable amount of money to get it back!  Sorry if it sounds harsh, but there's really no point in feeling sorry for yourselves when you haven't had the common sense to avoid any of these problems.  

[Opalienne]

I posted before seeing your last post so at least you've thought about taking the car away...... I just hope that you make it back to the port without further problems.   But please do register in France the minute you can.

[thomas16]

YES U HAVE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.  AN INNOCENT MISTAKE WE THOUGHT WE WERE ALLOWED A WHILE BEFORE WE CHANGED THE PLATES.

[Opalienne]

And Yes, you do have to change the number plate on your E type and get it registered in France.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Sorry Thomas16 but they're not 'out to get him and his car'.  If you have sent the tax back, regardless of whether the process has been completed by the DVLA or not, the car is UNTAXED from the date that you have chosen to surrender it, usually the date on the form used to send the tax disk back.

Therefore if - say - you send the tax back on the 1st January and the tax is surrendered from that date, to use the car on the 5th January would be an offence.  Whether the surrender has been finalised by the DVLA doesn't come into it - surrendered is surrendered.

As for the DVLA sort of picking on him or not, they employ people to do the work for them, under contract - therefore whilst the DVLA may not have specifically said 'get this car' they have told their contractors 'get any car that isn't taxed' which they seem to be doing quite efficiently.

Interestingly, Uk TV is currently running an advert from the DVLA telling people how easy it is to get caught, they have all the addresses where cars are registered but no tax has been bought.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Sorry, messages crossing here.  Thomas16's third message wasn't on the screen when I sent my reply.

Thomas, please use lower case, internet etiquette is that caps = shouting.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="thomas16"](AS FOR LF POSTINGS MY HUSBAND DOES NOT USE THIS FORUM I DO )[/quote]

But he does use the Total France forum, doesn't he?

[Ty Korrigan]

Hang on ....

 Tower Hamlets?

E-type Jag (I take it)

Discovery?

Is there a posh area in Tower Hamlets? I thought it was all tower blocks, Somali and Bangladeshi poor folk....

 Or did you win the Lotto!

[Tony F Dordogne]

Yep Ty, down by the river, what were wharf buildings going for way upwards of £1m - not like that when Iceni and I were at school in that area.  And there's always the Canary Wharf development, lots of money there.

 

[Stocky]

Thomas16, the fact is that on this forum you have learnt so much about law from those knowledgable about law, the fact is that I hope you have learn't a lesson. [;)]  Doesn't matter about what has happened, don't hang your dirty washing out on Forums as you will get no symapathy, just many comments about law on which about 30% is wrong.[:D]