second hand cars

[Jollity Farm]

can anyone advise me about buying second hand cars- is it cheaper to buy in UK and export or to look around in our own department (19) most second hand cars seem really expensive in France or are we not looking in the right places!! Having difficulty sourcing a left hand drive in UK

[Nearly Retired (I am now)]

I am part of the way there - but I don't know much at all. Agreed - the second hand prices in France look a bit steep and I am buying a cheap RHD french car here in England with the plan of exporting it to France where it will one day die!

The registration process seems complicated but do-able. One BIG QUESTION I have is do you have to be a french resident to register a car in France? I believe owning a maison secondaire and having an address is enough. It would be good if someone could give an authoratative answer.

 

[Charlotte3]

Hi guys,

 

I bought a second hand car from our local garage( it pays to snoop around the back of the lot) for 700 euros, 2 years CT and gaurantee for 6 months. Still have it although I doubt if it will pass the CT ever again!!! I don't mind 'cos we got 2 years for 700 euros which is fine by me! When they tell me it won't EVER pass another CT I'll simply scrap it and buy another from the same garage and hope to be as lucky.

We also have an old Renault 19 from the UK, still on N.Ireland plates but legally CT'd and insured which I'll scrap as soon as she becomes expensive to repair. Please don't give me another load of grief about this one guys, we will never agree on the legal  ins and outs, ok?

Anyway, we're much more interested in our motos in our house!

Do some snooping around and you should be fine, also talk to your french neighbours, they're usually a frugal lot!

Good luck

Aly

 

[basquen]

Sorry Aly but I couldn't resist!

What exactly do you mean by legally CT'd and insured?

[Jc]

You may have an insurance certificate but it is not legally insured.

[Sunday Driver]

There are no legal ins and outs to disagree with. The regulation is quite straightforward.

You may not drive a foreign registered car in your country of residence.

That's it.  It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Getting the CT done was a complete waste of money because the CT has no legal status on a foreign registered vehicle.

[Nearly Retired (I am now)]

Does anybody know?

Do I have to be french resident to register a car in France or do I only need an address of a maison secondaire?

[Rob Roy]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

There are no legal ins and outs to disagree with. The regulation is quite straightforward.

You may not drive a foreign registered car in your country of residence.

That's it.  It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Getting the CT done was a complete waste of money because the CT has no legal status on a foreign registered vehicle.

[/quote]

 

We were asked to produce a CT when we wanted to re-reg our UK car on French plates.

[tetley]

getting the CT is part of the re registering process, along with the headlamps (rhd to lhd), cert of conformity etc. I think Sundaydriver was referring to people who were not completing the re registering process.  I would advise to buy your car in France, unless you see something lhd that you can't refuse elsewhere.  You will have to go through the registering process, and if you are coming to live in France, personally I would recommend you get a lhd car here in France.  I have heard that secondhand lhd cars are more expensive here than the UK, but if you look around (which is part of the moving over experience!!)you will find the right car for your budget, and if you buy from a garage you get the warranty and carte gris and CT. 

Nearly retired, I don't know why you wouldn't be able to get the car registered in France...it would be staying in France wouldn't it?...I am sure Sundaydriver will be able to help you more.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Nearly Retired"]

Do I have to be french resident to register a car in France or do I only need an address of a maison secondaire?

[/quote]

A french address will suffice.  You'll need to produce a utility bill as proof of address.

 

 

[Cjlaws]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

There are no legal ins and outs to disagree with. The regulation is quite straightforward.

You may not drive a foreign registered car in your country of residence.

That's it.  It doesn't get any simpler than that.

 

[/quote]

Sorry to disagee SD, but that statement is incorrect. Of course I can drive a foreign registered car in my country of residence. My partner is legally resident in UK. I am legally resident in France. Her car is registed in the UK, and is insured for her and for me to drive. All relevant details have been declared to the insurers.

Are you seriously suggesting that I can't drive that car when it's in France? Or any of my non-French friends' cars?

[Sunday Driver]

CJ

My statement was directed to the previous poster whose position is quite different to that of you and your partner.

As defined in EU Directive 83/182, a resident of a Member State may temporarily import their vehicle into another Member State for up to six months in any twelve month period without having to register it in the other Member State. This period is considered to be sufficiently long to enable citizens to exercise in full their right of freedom of movement in a Member State other than the one in which they are normally resident. This exemption covers such situations as holiday visits, cross border business travel, etc.

In your case, your UK resident partner may take advantage of the above exemption from registration - on the condition that she may neither dispose of it, hire it out nor lend it to a resident of that State. The reason for this to prevent residents of Member States where vehicle taxation is (very) high from trying to avoid the taxes by using cars made over, rented or lent to them by residents of other Member States.

However, this prohibition on lending her car does not apply when she is on board when the car is being driven by someone over here. Neither does it apply when she is temporarily visiting family or friends living here, and allows a member of the family or a friend to make occasional use of the car.

So, you can drive her UK registered car when she is over here visiting you - but, if she flew back to the UK and left her car with you, then you wouldn't be allowed to drive it in France on its foreign plates.

 

 

[Charlotte3]

Oh my, how I just LOVE these lively discussions!!!!

1.  Who says my insurance is not valid?  Certainly not my insurance company who have said (in wriring) that the registration mark of any vehicle is used simply to identify the vehicle in the event of a claim. The question of re-registration is between me and the police. The insurance sompany has better things to do than the police's work for them!

2. My CT certificate is accepted by the police and the duane with no problems therefore I assume it to be valid or has my car suddenly become dangerous to others because the registration is UK and not French.  I haven't seen a section on the certificate stating that the plates are or are not French!!!!

3. As you know, my car does not have LHD lights.  I have beam deflectors which when tested by the CT centre directed the beam as required by French regulations.  I have not seen any confirmation of the English myth that you must have your lights changed to French ones. I fully expected to be told to have them changed but not so. 

 Whether you guys like it or not I have a legal CT certificate and legal insurance and I didn't pay through the nose for. If you choose to jump the gun then fine, but don't pick on someone who used their head and checked the requirements first! In the UK would you do lots of uneccessary work on your car before the MOT or would you use your head and wait to be told by an expert what was required first?

I fully realise my registration is not strictly legal, but if it doesn't bother the local police etc., why does it bother you guys so much?

Don't tell me none of you have ever broken the law a little?

I genuinely  would like to know your thoughts on the above 'cos I honestly don't understand this type of attitude.

Aly

[Cassis]

[quote user="Charlotte3"]

I fully realise my registration is not strictly legal, but if it doesn't bother the local police etc., why does it bother you guys so much?

[/quote]

Personally, I don't give a toss if someone else's registration is illegal.  I might be a bit nervous if it were my car that was not legally registered and I had an accident or something, though.    Anyway, you've no problem as you've got it in writing from your insurers that they don't care, so just carry on and good luck to you.

[Charlotte3]

Thanks Cassis,

Sense at last, now where did I put that wine?

Aly

[tetley]

I am fairly new here, but your post was a bit over the top I found.....I have no idea of who you are, I have never met you, read any of your other posts etc, but I put input into a thread...and feel i have been shot down!  I don't understand why people who live in France keep their english cars on english plates? it seems really slack....in my humble opinion.  I live here, work here and use services here.....I wouldn't consider running an english plated car?! it doesn't cost alot to register, it isn't very difficult....why do people (I am not raging at you) run english plated cars when they live in france...I really would be interested to know? that is a genuine question, not (nit)picking for a fight.

 

[Cjlaws]

Tetley - Hello, I hope it wasn't me who "shot you down". I agree that those of us who live here should comply with the law. No question. If someone wants to drive an untaxed and uninsured car, that is unacceptable. However if a car is kept in France, is properly insured and has an MOT or CT, then I'm not worried about where it is registered, neither, it seems, are the police.

SD - Sorry to tug your wire, but the situation can hardly be described in terms of  "It doesn't get any simpler than that", as you've demonstrated.

Aly - Good for you. If the insurers and the police are happy, so should we all be.

[Poppy]

We can't reregister our UK car because they didn't make the model for the European market therefore we cant get correct headlights. Our CT testing station would not issue a CT even though we had deflectors and beam was acceptable.Without the CT the prefecture won't entertain an application for French plates. We have UK insurance and insurers are happy with CT showing only UK lights as the failure. Gendarmes are also happy with our insurance,but there is still a niggle at the back of my brain [I] re what happens if we do have an accident in the dark!

Interested to know how previous posters got CT without changing headlights.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Charlotte3"]

1.  Who says my insurance is not valid?  Certainly not my insurance company who have said (in wriring) that the registration mark of any vehicle is used simply to identify the vehicle in the event of a claim. The question of re-registration is between me and the police. The insurance sompany has better things to do than the police's work for them!

[/quote]

You've missed the point completely.

Your insurance company will take great delight in refusing your claim because at the time, you will have been driving a foreign registered vehicle in contravention of the law.  It's called failing to disclose a material fact.  The premiums you have paid them will be retained for their profit.

[quote user="Charlotte3"] 

2. My CT certificate is accepted by the police and the duane with no problems therefore I assume it to be valid or has my car suddenly become dangerous to others because the registration is UK and not French.  I haven't seen a section on the certificate stating that the plates are or are not French!!!!

[/quote]

Again, you've missed the point completely.

[quote user="Charlotte3"]

 .....don't pick on someone who used their head and checked the requirements first!

[/quote]

When you say you used your head and checked the requirements first - which requirements did you check? 

Clearly it wasn't the  ones which state that a UK registered car must have a current MOT and valid road tax at all times. 

Nor was it the ones which state that it's mandatory to import your car and register it here before you can legally drive it.

Nor was it the ones which say you must make an immediate customs declaration on arrival in France.  Note that the Douanes recently placed prohibition orders on several hundred Jersey registered motorhomes in long term storage in France and are levying fines of up to 1500 euros for non registration and non payment of tax.

[quote user="Charlotte3"]

I fully realise my registration is not strictly legal, but if it doesn't bother the local police etc., why does it bother you guys so much?

Don't tell me none of you have ever broken the law a little?

[/quote]

Then why do you come on forums like this and admit you're not legal, then try to justify it?  Is it because you just like to wind people up?

Why don't you just fill the form in at the prefecture?  After all, you've got all the other stuff you need.

 

[Chancer]

Sunday Driver

I don't want to add fuel to the fire but I disagree with some of your suppositions that I have read on this forum, but to balance that I must say that you always give prompt and good advice and are an incredible source of information on the subject of registration and motoring.

Why do I say "supposition"? - well for example the statement that "your insurance company WILL take great delight in refusing your claim....

If you had said "COULD" then of course I agree, but "WILL"? - do you actually have any personal experience of this scenario? Because I do and in my case there were no problems.

I divide my time between England and France and whilst the car was initially insured and CT'd , it is now also registered, the decision was made for my convenience but I am sure that there are some that will tell me I will be breaking the law when I next spend 6 months in England with the car.

Whilst the car was still UK registered (but insured and CT'd in France) the UK MOT and tax lapsed and I returned with the car a couple of times on business for short periods, I have read from you on this or another forum that the automatic number plate recognition system at Dover would trigger a fixed penalty for no road fund license, again this did not happen to me.

I concur that they do have the above system at Dover but to extrapolate that it would be used in the way that you said was I believe again a supposition.

As an aside I agree with the sentiment that UK insurance companies would probably use any means to refuse a claim (no MOT, car still foreign registered etc) but I am not sure that it follows that a French company would be the same. In the few cases that I know of when the above has happened the insurance company has always paid out to the 3rd party without any argument, it has been to the policy holder's claim that they tried to get difficult.

One example that I know of well. A taxi driver friend of mine was seriously injured by a stolen "ute" driven by gipsys who ran a red light trying to evade the police after stealing a railway ticket cash box.

The owner of the ute who had third party insurance got nothing but his insurers paid out for my friends vehicle and hospitalisation etc even though the vehicle was stolen and not covered for other drivers.

Please don't take this a personal attack S.D as I really value your contributions and have learnt a lot from you but for some time have wanted to play devils advocate.

 

[Cjlaws]

SD - You say "Your insurance company will take great delight in refusing your claim because at the time, you will have been driving a foreign registered vehicle in contravention of the law.  It's called failing to disclose a material fact.  The premiums you have paid them will be retained for their profit."

That's a fairly bold statement on behalf of a company whose identity is apparently unknown to you!

Consider this:

Three years ago my partner had a nasty accident in the UK whilst driving my car (registered and insured in France). The accident was caused by a loose dog, which was killed by a car travelling in the opposite direction. I wasn't in the car at the time and my partner was injured, necessitating a claim in respect of the damage to the car and personal injury to my partner.

My insurance policy covers travel throughout the EU. My partner was and is a named driver on the policy.

My insurers did not ask any questions about where I was at the time of the accident, or about how the car came to be in the UK. They paid the costs of repairing the vehicle and recovered damages in respect of my partner's injuries from the dog's owner.

No refusal on the grounds of non-disclosure.

Please don't think that I'm getting at you, but you are making some very sweeping statements whilst, I appreciate, trying to help people.

[Jc]

I don't understand;what was not disclosed?

[Chancer]

Good point.

Perhaps S.D. can explain what he meant by failing to disclose a material fact.

[Sunday Driver]

JR

As you mention, third party claims are likely to still be met, but the thing that hurts the most is where your vehicle is written off and the insurer refuses to settle on the grounds of material non-disclosure. 

A few years ago, the insurance industry developed an anti fraud system based on studying responses to questions relating to the circumstances of claims.  It uses a methodology similar to kinesics (the interpretation of body language as an indicator of deception). A former industry colleague resigned his position as head of fraud for a major UK insurer in order to establish a company to develop a software based solution to this issue.  I am advised by him that it is now standard industry practice to screen claims in this manner and there is no reason to assume that other EU based insurance companies are not following the same route.

With regards to ANPR cameras in use at Dover docks, I sat on the original policy committee that authorised the development of the system and the ability to link the camera output to police and DVLA licencing databases was identified as a key functionality. The success of the Dover operation was a clear factor in the decision to extend the national rollout of ANPR based licence enforcement where cameras identify untaxed/unregistered vehicles for traffic police intervention.  Clearly, there were no traffic police available to intervene at the time of your "incident"...[;-)]

Disclosed material fact:  You are driving your unregistered imported vehicle under the authority of Article 2-VI de l' Arrete du 05/11/1984 (imported vehicles may be driven under cover of their foreign registration plates for a limited period of time whilst accomplishing the registration formalities).  This position is disclosed to the insurer when you apply to insure the car on its UK plates.

Undisclosed material fact: You continue to drive your unregistered imported vehicle after the authorised period has expired and to avoid having your accident claim rejected, you do not advise the insurer that you were driving it without legal authority at the time. 

CJ

Your partner's unfortunate accident occured at a time when you were properly insured, therefore there was no question of them refusing to settle the claim.

To both - don't worry about challenging my comments because it's important that forum members are properly advised on issues like this.  If someone posts incorrect or misleading information recommending a particular course of action which is outside the law, then a clear explanation of the true position needs to be made.

 

 

[Charlotte3]

I,m sorry if I seemed to shoot anyone down, OK?

SD, I also appreciate your normally very sensible advice, but I can't stand being told what WILL happen by some one who doesn't know my situation. I only have 3rd party insurance for the very reasons you stated. I have been advised on this forum before that my CT is illegal because I have beam deflectors when I know that is not so. You have told me that my insurance company WILL NOT pay out.....how do know this for a fact?  How can my registration be considered an undisclosed material fact when I have been insured with the same company for 5 years and I have contacted them and they have confirmed that as far as they are concerned I am insured?  Do you see what I mean?

As for the question of why would anyone keep an English car on English plates I don't know, I kept mine on Northern Irish ones!!! Seriously though, as I have said before it is used for 2 10 minute trips to and from work every day, is absolutely ancient and will no doubt reach it's natural demise within the very near future. Quite frankly I won't be spending any more money on it!! 

I'm sorry if you think I'm winding you up I don't mean to....honestly!

I'm a Northern Irish protestant, what do you expect me to do?

Again, deepest apologies, I shall publicly flog myself yet again.

Aly (I do love a good argument though)