Front Wheel Bearing Renaut Clio

[Sharkster]

Advice please:-

My car was making a knocking sound (think of a helicopter noise), so I took it to my local Renault garage as I thought it was one of the wheel bearings.  Their first diagnosis was worn rear tyres, so I had these replaced.  The noise did not go away.  I returned to the Renault garage and one of the mechanics took the car out with me (he drove).  Whilst driving I suggested it may be a wheel bearing and he said if definately was not and it was something to do with the transmission.  He continued driving and then said yes it could be the wheel bearing.  So we returned to the garage and he jacked up the car and the drivers side front wheel had a huge amount of play.  He used a tool to tighten the hub (I think that is what it is called, the big single bolt in the middle) and after doing this there was still a small amount of play in the front wheel but nothing to compared to before.  After this he confirmed 100% it was a wheel bearing and would cost me the best part of 300 euros to fix.  I have yet to book it in and on returning home the noise was gone completely.  Having searched on the web, the only real symptoms of a duff wheel bearing are the play and a screeching noise,  since I have not had a screeching noise could my wheel have loosened for any other reason?  I got a feeling the Renault garage were not sure and thought they could get another 300 euros from me for uneccessary work but I could be being paranoid.

I need to do a 300 mile round trip on Monday and Renault cannot repair my car until late next week, so I am now stuck on what to do. 

[trumpet]

It probably is the bearing. They wear and that is why the wheel will have play in it. 300 euro. a bit steep, for a half hour job! You can get milage by doing what the mechanic did by tightening, but it will have to be replaced in the long run.

[Sunday Driver]

You could always give your local Feu Vert tyre place a ring and ask them if they can replace the wheel bearings (roulements de moyeu de roue) tomorrow.  They check them as part of their standard service schedule, so as it's a 'common' Renault they may have them in stock....

 

[Sharkster]

Thanks for the advice.  I have gotten a second opinion from an independant garage around the corner from Renault.  Firstly they were only wanting 150 euros for the job and secondly since there was no noise now he said to leave it for now but he would happily take my money now but did not see if necessary.  So in your opinions can I do my trip on Monday, feel free to add a disclaimer :)

SD - Do all tyre places do wheel bearing replacement as we have an Auto etap and Martin Pneus near us

[Sunday Driver]

I'd take the advice of your local garage.....[:)] 

I only checked Feu Vert, but I expect most of the tyre shops will offer similar servicing.  That said, the price quoted by your local garage sounds fair, so I'd go with them - you'll build a good relationship with them and if you're satisfied with the job, then you may wish to let them do all your future servicing work, rather than pay out full dealer prices.

 

 

[Ford Anglia]

My eldest used to have an "N" plate Clio, and this is a common fault. In many cases, the large nut the Renault garge man tightened causes the threads on the hub to collapse, so that further tightening is impossible.

When we found this on my lad's car, (He tried to tighten it but it just spun), we replaced that side half shaft. I did the job with his help, and it cost us £90 for the parts. Took around an hour to do.

 

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="trumpet"]It probably is the bearing. They wear and that is why the wheel will have play in it. 300 euro. a bit steep, for a half hour job! You can get milage by doing what the mechanic did by tightening, but it will have to be replaced in the long run.[/quote]Some potentially dangerous advice here if you don't mind me saying so.

Firstly, understand that there is no way that the play has been caused by the hub nut coming loose and therefore it can only be the result of bearing wear.

Secondly, tightening it may well take up the play temporarily but there is no escaping the fact that the bearing (or bearings because there will be 2 of them) is, or are, well on their way out. Also tightening will put excessive pressure on what are already damaged surfaces thus greatly accelerating the rate of wear.

Thirdly, whether or not it will last for a 300 mile trip is impossible to say. Best case scenario you complete the trip safely and heave a sigh of relief, worst case you lose a front wheel (and possibly much more!).

Finally, I will guarantee that this is not "a half hour job". Although I will readily admit to never having done the job on this particular car I have done similar on many others and by the very design of front wheel drive cars it is certain that the whole front suspension will need to be stripped down just to get the hub off which will then need putting in a press to extract and refit the bearings so I'd be very surprised if the workshop time were less than 3 hours plus parts of course.

[Sharkster]

Ernie

Thanks for another outlook. For everybodies information, according to renault's quote the work takes 1.6 hours to complete (1hr 36 mins).

[trumpet]

Thanks ErnieY. You merely confirmed what I said but in  more words.

OK maybe the half hour was a bit presumptuous.

I can only assume that you have taken a bit of an attitude old chap as it was clearly my advice you had targeted.

I had a wheel bearing done here in France on a Renault it did not take that long. I watched the whole thing.

And yes I have replaced many a bearing in my time.

[AnOther]

No intention to take an "attitude" trumpet so sorry if it came over that way [:$] I did however want to stress the potential consequences of bearing failure.

If the Clio book says 1.6 hours then thats great and it's obviously a bit more straight forward than some, perhaps they are using taper rollers which could simplify it, whatever, I'm happy for the OP on that score and agree that €300 does sound a tad on the high side for the job.

All said and done though I would still be uncomfortable making the journey, especially so if I were intending carrying passengers.

Your second garage by the way is only seeing the car AFTER the play has been "tightened" out and basing their judgement on how it is now but considering that you described it initially as "a huge amount of play" I think total failure is probably not far off, but I hope I'm wrong.

[trumpet]

Thanks ErnieY. Sorry just having a bad hair day.

The great thing about a garage is that they have all the tools and equipment. When I saw my bearing being done the car was at head height on a special gig. And no it wasn't a Renault garage, far too expensive. It was a local chap.

[Sharkster]

The man at the garage based his diagnosis on the fact that the bearing is not making any noise, thus it is unlikely to be so badly worn.  He said as soon as the noise comes it is time to get the work done.  I explained what the Renault garage had done, so he knew the facts.  Like I mentioned before, the noise was a vibration noise, caused by the play in the wheel and since they have tightened it the noise has gone.  There has never been the whiring bearing noise I have read about.  Do the symptoms suggest definate bearing problems or is there any way the hub may have loosened another way.  It is also my understanding it is highly unlikely the front wheel will part from the car, the rear wheels are the area of most concern of this happening.  I may be completely wrong though.

[Aitch]

Try www.renaultforums.co.uk Site has a wealth of info.

Aitch

[andyps]

If the bearing was making noise when loose it would be because there is wear on one or more of the surfaces. All that happens when you tighten it up is that the bearing is a bit squashed together so doesn't get as much chance to make a noise. The wear is still there though. I don't want to sound like a doom merchant, but the potential consequence of this is that the bearing might fail quite suddenly, at which point the wheel may well stop turning, or worse it will come off complete with the hub and brake components. This is not a common occurence, but does happen (ask people who used to own Austin Allegros!). I would recommend getting the bearing replaced as soon as possible. I used to work for a bearing manufacturer so have seen the results of a few failures, as I say they are rare, but I wouldn't take a chance personally. 1.6 hours sounds reasonable if the mechanic has the correct equipment.

[Salty Sam]

Sharkster,

I don't know about the Clio, but if the Renault Scenic is anything to go by, the bearings are located within the disc hubs. If the discs are corroded or worn beyond manufacturers recommendations, it is likely the price of 300 euro would be for a new disc complete with bearing and ABS sensor. Although it would be rather odd for the garage to only replace one disc - they usually insist on replacing the pair!

As has already been stated, tightening the hub nut might appear to be a temporary remedy, but if the bearing fails it can have catastrophic consequences.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Sharkster"]The man at the garage based his diagnosis on the fact that the bearing is not making any noise, thus it is unlikely to be so badly worn.  He said as soon as the noise comes it is time to get the work done.  I explained what the Renault garage had done, so he knew the facts.  Like I mentioned before, the noise was a vibration noise, caused by the play in the wheel and since they have tightened it the noise has gone.  There has never been the whiring bearing noise I have read about.  Do the symptoms suggest definate bearing problems or is there any way the hub may have loosened another way.  It is also my understanding it is highly unlikely the front wheel will part from the car, the rear wheels are the area of most concern of this happening.  I may be completely wrong though.
[/quote]Whiring or screeching are POSSIBLE symptoms of a failing bearing but lack of either cannot be taken to mean anything and from what you have said there I think there can be little doubt that the bearings are going/gone. Also, on front wheel drive cars, it can be quite hard to hear a noisy bearing noise because with the drive shafts etc. it is sometimes difficult to spin the wheel fast enough for it to show up plus you can get a degree of noise or rumble from the CV joints in the shafts themselves.

Think for a moment about wheel play.

Normally there should be none, OK there will always be a very tiny amount because you need some clearance for the wheel to be able turn at all, but for all practical purposes we can say it's none, then suddenly you have play and there are really only 2 ways this can arise.

Firstly, if the hardened surfaces on the bearing(s) have started to break down then they will wear very very quickly and hence produce play.

Secondly, the nut becomes loose. This is highly unlikely, in fact I would go as far as to say impossible, because they are either VERY VERY tight, (and frequently of the opposite thread to the wheel's rotation to discourage any possibility of auto loosening),  or else held in place by a split pin. If a nut is damaged then that's something else however nuts do not   "suddenly" become damaged so unless it had been previously removed and then perhaps overtightened or cross threaded, then it's difficult to imagine how a nut could be faulty.

You've either got failing/failed bearings or a duff nut with a predisposition to come undone, neither of which is a good scenario.

I agree that actually losing a wheel is worst case but it's is a possibility. If the bearings collapsed completely then, assuming you kept control of the car of course, the huge amount of play and wobble which would result, combined with the drive shaft now out of balance and thrashing about could theoretically rip the whole front suspension apart. I'd sincerely hope that you would not drive the car at speeds high enough for this to happen though [blink]

Sorry to rant but I'd rather you labelled me a doom sayer than see you come a cropper [8-|] 

[Sharkster]

Thanks again for everybodies input.  I just popped to the Chinese  in the car and I am sure there is now a squeak, which is an audible sign the bearing is going as well.  I will not be using the car for my journey as the risk and potential cost does not seem worth it, so I will either try and get it replaced tomorrow (do garages open on a Saturday?) or hire a car from HyperU since they are by far the cheapest I have found - still 77 euros of a 500km journey :( .  Anybody know of anywhere that maybe rents older cars cheaper?

[AnOther]

Good call...[;-)] [;-)]

[Sharkster]

Just been to auto-etape and they can replace the bearing for only 128 euros, so I have saved over half by shopping around.  It is not a Renault brand bearing, it is a SKF bearing which is actually dearer than the renaullt bearing.  Does anybody know if that is a good make of bearing?.  My final question to all is, is there any chance, even a slight one that it could be something else apart from the wheel bearing.  (quick summary below)

1. Helicopter vibration noise.

2. A lot of play in the front drivers side wheel

3. Play reduced dramatically when large hub nut tightened.

4. No noise now, but could be an audible squeak, but that could be unrelated and it is not loud at all (also could be my imagination)

5. Driving at least 300 miles on Monday

[trumpet]

Nice one the ster. Well, you are making a start, it is a process of elimination I am afraid.

When the chap is replacing on the bearing, he might have a better idea of any other problems.

But.................here's hoping and good luck on the trip.

[AnOther]

Ask to see the old bearings then you'll see/feel for your self how they are.

Don't worry about the make of bearing, Renault will only be buying in from a 3rd party supplier anyway. When you buy generic parts from a main dealer you're usually paying over the odds for the priviledge of a box with their name on it...!

If the symptoms were cured by tightening then it leaves little room for doubt that the bearing(s) are the culprit.

[Sharkster]

That is what I wanted to hear.  From what I can see on the internet SKF bearings are a recommended brand for most models of car and I have read some information that they are often better than the originals.  My gripe now is how Renault can justify there ridiculously high cost of repairs whilst expecting me to wait a week to pay for the privilege, when a chain store can do the work the same day and charge less than half the price.

[AnOther]

Twas ever thus I'm afraid and no different to how it is in UK.

I'm not defending them but main dealers do have massive overheads and operating cost's which the bit players don't.

At least in France I doubt they have taken to employing eastern europeans on minimum wage to do the routine stuff whilst maintining the premium hourly rates as many UK dealers seem to have done!

Bully for you for getting it done at a remarkably good price [:D]

[Sharkster]

I thought with this car I would get all the work done at the main dealer, as with past cars I have never bothered due to the cost.  Once you have had a few repairs done at the main dealer however, the cost just becomes too much.  It is a shame really since I have built good relations with the Renault garage and know a few of the staff to say hello to in the street.  Saying that though over the last 2 years I have generated them in excess of 3/4000 euros in work, since I also had my car repaired there after an accident.

On the subject of accidents has anybody experienced the French car insurance claims system?  I worked in car insurance for 10 year in the UK (on the sales side) and never made a claim but understand clearly all the principals of insurance.  But I was still shocked when the loss adjuster wanted me to pay 50 euros extra (on top of the excess) towards the cost of the repair to my car since one of the brake pads was worn a bit (still legal and everything) and it had to be replaced due to being damaged in the crash and they did not want me to profit from the accident (Ha! hit by an unisured driver, what a joke, profit!.  We had pictures of the driver plus the reg no of the car but the insurance company never even attempted to track him down!)

[Sunday Driver]

SKF are the world's largest manufacturer of bearings -  they invented the integrated hub bearing unit back in the late 1930s.  If you buy branded Renault wheel bearings, you'll find they are made by SKF.