Car totalled - other drivers fault - why are WE out of pocket?.

[Wendy]

OK an update. Our car was towed to the local garage on the 23rd May. Since then we have had little communication from our insurance company G.A.N (to give you an idea). Now we have since discovered that our car has been disposed of from that garage WITHOUT our consent and WITHOUT any settlement from the insurance company. We did not cause the accident yet our totalled car is gone and to date we have received no compensation. The garage owners just shrug their shoulders at us.

Someone give me a tommy-gun. PLEASE!!!

[Sunday Driver]

You already told us a whole week ago that your car had been disposed of by the garage.

Have you spoken to the garage yet to find out if they were authorised by the insurer to sell the car?

Have you spoken to the insurer yet to find out if they authorised the sale?

Without this information, you can't really determine which way to proceed in this matter....

 

 

 

[Ron Avery]

Right Wen, this is how it works. You send the jointly completed constat to your Insurance company.  You notify them by phone of the accident and give details.  You go to a garage or if it was towed to one, you go there and quote the reference number from your insurer.  The garage call an expert (assessor), he attends and takes photos etc and makes an estimate of the repair costs.  From this point on, you do NOT deal with your insurance company, you deal with the Expert who will write to you or phone you,  copying everything to your insurer.  If your car is written off, you will get an offer of valuation for the car from the assessor, or you can take the valuation and also buy the car for spares to break yourself, this is normally about 25% of the valuation.  The car cannot be taken by the assessor without the car being ceded to them and you will receive forms in duplicate which you complete and return to the assessor, keeping a copy. So exactly what have you had in the way of paperwork from the assessors?

The car will normally stay at the garage until a decision has been taken.  If the car is written off you get a cheque from the assessor, not your insurer.  The Insurance company pay the assessor, they also determine in conjunction with the other party's insurer who was to blame,  not the police or the drivers. Therefore, your first point of call as to the whereabouts of your car is to the assessor to see where the car is, not your insurance company, nor garage. 

[Val_2]

Ron is right. One of our vans had a bad accident and a day or two after the expert had been to view the damage we received three different options induplicate to decide what to do - complete write-off and receive what they perceive to be the value at that time, repair upto the limit offered by the insurers and for us to pay the rest and a third option of taking for spares and repairing ourselves independently. The garage has no right to dispose of anything until your sign the relevent decision although there may have been a time limit for the paperwork to be returned that you missed. The vehicle may have already been taken to the garage of the expert's choice for repair until such time you give the go ahead. If you do decide to go for repair and pay the extra charges incurred at your own expense be very very careful, we got for the same amount again the insurers were paying and well over the estimate the expert gave and after paying up, I happened to complain to our insurance man who said we should have refused the original estimate and asked him to get more towards the costs. Also if your car is in storage at a garage somewhere else, they will charge you for daily storing and you will have to pay.

[Catalpa]

Wen, I think I remember you saying - in another thread relating to education - that you signed a form relating to your child's (son's?) schooling decisions without completely understanding what you were signing as your French reading skills are not good. Could you have already signed something relevant to this accident - perhaps agreeing to an offer or a course of action - and not recognised the significance of the document?

[Val_2]

Personally I would be inclined to contact the expert who do the valuation for the insurers and find out where the vehicle has gone because in our case, that particular expert always uses the main Peugeot garage when our vehicle was a Renault and should have gone there. As I said and re-itterate check this urgently because you will be liable to storage costs of approx 15€/day.

[nomoss]

[quote user="wen"]

My partner was driving my son to school in May and pulled out to over take a very old man driving a very old tractor. With clear vision and no oncoming traffic he was just passing the tractor when the old guy suddenly turned left across his path with out indication, colliding with our car and sent it into a spin and it overturned several times landing on its roof.

[/quote]

In view of the spin and multiple overturning, do you think perhaps that the insurance company/assessor might have decided your partner was driving just a teeny bit fast when he pulled out?

[Wendy]

No, because this half-blind old man was tooting along at a snails pace for quite a while and the OH had crawled behind him. I dont know about you, but  a Suzuki Alto does not go from 25kph to 100kph in 5 seconds. By the way, neither assessor or insurance people are returning our calls at this stage.

[Patf]

I drove a Suzuki Alto for a few years and it certainly wasn't speedy. Nor was it very stable, a narrow wheelbase and I nearly went over if taking a bend fast.

[Onion van man]

[quote user="wen"]No, because this half-blind old man was tooting along at a snails pace for quite a while and the OH had crawled behind him. I dont know about you, but  a Suzuki Alto does not go from 25kph to 100kph in 5 seconds. By the way, neither assessor or insurance people are returning our calls at this stage.[/quote]

I know this won't help you now but, Without sounding pedantic, If I had any concerns about another road users lack of observations I would use the horn to get their attention before overtaking or passing them.

The best bit of driving advice someone gave me when I passed my test at 17 was to treat all road users as morons and never to assume what they were about to do. I think your OH was very lucky not to have sustained serious injuries in the accident.

[Danny]

[quote user="wen"]By the way, neither assessor or insurance people are returning our calls at this stage.[/quote]

As suggested before, put things in writing. You will get a response if you send them letters "recommandé avec AR"

Danny

 

[Chancer]

[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="wen"]

My partner was driving my son to school in May and pulled out to over take a very old man driving a very old tractor. With clear vision and no oncoming traffic he was just passing the tractor when the old guy suddenly turned left across his path with out indication, colliding with our car and sent it into a spin and it overturned several times landing on its roof.

[/quote]

In view of the spin and multiple overturning, do you think perhaps that the insurance company/assessor might have decided your partner was driving just a teeny bit fast when he pulled out?
[/quote]

 

Wen

I thought of you (or at least your husband) while passing a tractor yesterday, I am currently blind in one eye but luckily its the left one and driving a RHD car past a slow moving tractor on my right was not a big issue, I did think "what if he suddenly swung to the left now" even though there were no field entrances there.

I concluded that I would have been able to stop or avoid him unless he clipped my rear when I had almost passed him, I looked at my speedo and was doing 15mph which was enough to safely pass the tractor but certainly not spin or roll several times.

I did in fact roll one of the first Suzuki jeeps when I was young (which were considerably less stable than their current vehicles) and have experienced 2 other roll overs while motor racing so I believe that I have the experience to judge that your husband must have been passing said tractor considerably faster than was necessary to safely do so, this is not a criticism as it can be very frustrating to be stuck for some time behind slow moving vehicles but it is an inescapable fact of life in rural France.

Whatever speed he was really doing I bet he will pass tractors more slowly and generally treat them with more respect from now on[:)]

Do you have any news re your settlement and the disposal of the vehicle?

Have you checked on the Argus.fr web site to see what value they should have offered you? If the French menu is offputting for you then have a try on autotrader.co.uk which uses a similar menu structure, but remember the £ values will not be relevant here so use the Argus.

[Wendy]

JR, the fact is the tractor driver turned directly across my partners path, clipped the car and it overturned. The tractor driver admitted on the spot that he did not look behind him, or check, before turning left and nor did he see him overtaking prior to turning... obviously. Also when one is driving at snails pace in front of a long line of traffic one must expect that those drivers will be intending to overtake when oncoming traffic has passed. French drivers do like to overtake do they not?...

We met the tractor driver that same day; he is very hard of hearing, very old, and cannot see to sign his own signature.  And this old codger could have killed my partner and son through his actions. The situation could have been worse had other drivers behind my partner not applied their brakes in time. I have no sympathy at all for him, he should not be anywhere on the roads at all.

To date the insurance company G*N are still not returning our calls regarding our claim; the garage owner refuses to see us and tell us where our car has gone to; we are still forking out money for a rental car; and G*N still do not accept that the Argus.fr quote to replace our vehicle is correct. They still maintain we are only entitled to 2000-odd euros for an 18 month old car that we had insured comprehensively for over 8000 euros. I am sure they are hoping we will just 'sod off' but we refuse to do so and will continue to hassle them to get justice.

In answer to your remark, we simply do not bother passing tractors anymore, and we most certainly have no respect for them or their drivers[:P], and in our area we encounter a lot of them. We watch others behind us overtaking and wish them all the luck in the world.

I think French drivers, in general, are the worst and most dangerous I have ever seen anywhere in the world. I certainly have never seen so many small children riding around in cars unrestrained as I have here. Just shows their attitude to safety, if they do not care about their little one's in their cars they certainly don't give a darn about others on the road around them.

 

 

 

 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="wen"]

We simply do not bother passing tractors anymore, and we most certainly have no respect for them or their drivers[:P], and in our area we encounter a lot of them.

[/quote]

What a silly comment.

Just because your OH misjudged an overtake by passing a tractor when he should have held back, you have now decided to treat all tractor drivers with distain.

One must presume that you will also be treating all insurance companies likewise.

Time to wise-up. There was (from what you have described) clearly fault on BOTH sides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AnOther]

I must agree with Bugbear that a comment like "we simply do not bother passing tractors anymore" is silly and in fact would go further and say it's ridiculous and completely impractical to boot.

Your car is fitted with a horn is it not, why do you think that might be ?

Contrary to the use which the majority of drivers seem to put theirs, i.e. the venting of anger or frustration, it's sole purpose is to alert others to your presence.

When I learnt to drive back in the 60's it was considered both sensible and advisable to toot the horn in such circumstances and in fact I still do it when preparing to overtake someone who I think might not be aware of me or my intentions and I would be surprised if this were not still taught now.

It's very obvious wen that you are still angry about both the incident and your treatment by the insurance company, and you have a right to be, but fatuous comments like this won't further your case.

If you drive defensively regarding everyone else as a complete idiot likely to perform the most unexpected and bizarre maneouver at any time you'll hopefully not get caught again [:D]

[Wendy]

Oh yes...so you include insurance companies on your Xmas card list?. Do you work for one?. All insurance companies stink.

Yes, I admit we view and treat all tractor drivers now with complete 'disdain 'as we encounter them every day and they are a damn menace. Especially the older ones. And especially French ones. How quickly can a car horn stop a deaf elderly driver from turning across you?.

If you had been through what we have lately you would be angered too. Especially if it had been a loved one of yours who could have been killed ( that's if you have a loved one at all.).

Go back to bed and read some more Peter Mayle.

 

[Catalpa]

Wen, it may be that your charming personality is why you are having a hellish time resolving this problem. If I were your insurance company / garage / assessor, I'd be avoiding your calls too.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="wen"]

Go back to bed and read some more Peter Mayle.

[/quote]

If we're recommending books Wen, here's one you should definately read.

[AnOther]

Here here Catalpa.

And here's some more reading material for when you've finished Bugbears recommendation.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0749307846

You might also do well to remember that you have chosen to live in what is largely an agricultural country where a good number of the indigeneous population are barely above being peasants (I do not mean that disparagingly) and in which it is not in the least bit uncommon to encounter tractors.

 

 

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

Womder what the tractor driver's perspective on the accident was and is?

[Clair]

[quote user="Bugbear"]If we're recommending books Wen, here's one you should definately read.[/quote]

Roadcraft: The Police Driver's Handbook

I did an adult evening course on this a long time ago and rode in a police car whilst the police driver was commenting on how he was reading the road and traffic....

I am certain it made me a better driver.

[Hagar]

[quote user="wen"]

I think French drivers, in general, are the worst and most dangerous I have ever seen anywhere in the world. I certainly have never seen so many small children riding around in cars unrestrained as I have here. 

[/quote]

You obviously haven't been to Brasil, India, the Phillipines, Thailand,  Nigeria (indeed any of the west african countries) and a host of others I could list. Personally I find French drivers, in general, somewhat better than those in the UK.

Just to support some of the other comments on blame - I find it very difficult to contemplate any accident where the driver overtaking is not at fault to some degree.

rgds

Hagar

[Eos]

Hi Hagar,

 

I too find French drivers not much worse or better than those anywhere else I've ever driven, with the exception of Italy. There every journey undertaken showcased at least one example of how not to drive whether it be car, scooter or truck.

With regard to the overtaking driver not being at fault and your difficulty contemplating that concept, my husband had his new car written off on a straight road while overtaking a slow moving tractor and trailer that had no road tax, insurance, indicator lights, tail lights or wing mirrors after the unlicensed driver decided to take an unsignalled right turn as my husband was mid manoeuvre. His insurance company took the tractor driver to court where the judge found in my husband's favour. This however, did not happen in France and things may be seen differently there.

Eos.

 

 

 

[Hagar]

[quote user="Eos"]

Hi Hagar,

 

I too find French drivers not much worse or better than those anywhere else I've ever driven, with the exception of Italy. There every journey undertaken showcased at least one example of how not to drive whether it be car, scooter or truck.

With regard to the overtaking driver not being at fault and your difficulty contemplating that concept, my husband had his new car written off on a straight road while overtaking a slow moving tractor and trailer that had no road tax, insurance, indicator lights, tail lights or wing mirrors after the unlicensed driver decided to take an unsignalled right turn as my husband was mid manoeuvre. His insurance company took the tractor driver to court where the judge found in my husband's favour. This however, did not happen in France and things may be seen differently there.

Eos.

Eos - In your husband's case I can see that most people would consider the tractor driver 100% at fault and I'm happy they one the case for you. I'm sure the fact that the tractor driver had no insurance etc went in his favour.

That notwithstanding I take the view that overtaking is a risky business and the onus is very much on the overtaking driver to ensure the manouvre can be undertaken safely and that he/she takes into account all the potential risks.

Overtaking slow-moving tractors on rural roads is a very risky business - particularly those without rear view mirrors. We are right in the middle of harvest here and our roads are full of them and other weird machinery at the moment. Before overtaking these guys I always try to get some indication from the tractor driver that he acknowledges my existence. A look behind, a wave through, a near side indicator - even simply a deliberate move into the nearside. If I don't get one I use the horn. I also make sure that my overtaking speed is such that should the silly blind old b----r do something stupid and I do clip him - the consequences are not going to be fatal for him or me.

rgds

Hagar   

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Eos"]

With regard to the overtaking driver not being at fault and your difficulty contemplating that concept, my husband had his new car written off on a straight road while overtaking a slow moving tractor and trailer that had no road tax, insurance, indicator lights, tail lights or wing mirrors after the unlicensed driver decided to take an unsignalled right turn as my husband was mid manoeuvre. His insurance company took the tractor driver to court where the judge found in my husband's favour. This however, did not happen in France and things may be seen differently there.

[/quote]

Sorry, but this is yet another example of a dangerous overtake situation. The legality of the vehicle in this case bears no relationship to the fact that overtaking where there are junctions - field entrances - laybys - carpark entrances or indeed anything likely to cause a change in direction of the vehicle being overtaken is just plain hazardous and should be avoided if at all possible. If unavoidable extreme care should be used and speed matched to the ability to stop should the situation change.

The onus of completing a safe overtaking manoeuvre rests with the driver/rider overtaking.