What to do if moving to France temporarilly?

[Fiona]

Hi, I have read through the FAQ and other threads on the subject which are very informative but equally scary considering what seems to be involved in re-registering vehicles in France!  We are going, initially for 6 months (whether we stay longer depends on how we settle, enjoy etc etc).  We have a place to stay initially for 6 months and if we want to stay longer then we will look for a longer term let.  However, we have niaively been planning on this without really giving that much thought to our car situation.  We have a Uk registered Citroen Picasso, a Japanese grey import (just to complicate matters) Mitsubishi Delica and a camper van.  We planned to take all 3 vehicles with us.  Our house in the UK will be rented out (although I plan to keep that as my "registered" address for bank accounts etc).  However, as we - certainly for the first 2 months or so - won't know if we are staying beyond the 6 month period, is there any way around the re-registration issue?  I don't want to do anything that would invalidate my insurance but I just wondered how much I could get away with.  It seems very long winded to have to re-register them in France if we may end up re-registering them back in the UK just months later!

Many thanks

 

[andyh4]

Since you currently have no plan to permenantly export the vehicles, provided your UK insurance is happy with you being out of the country with them for 6 months you do not have any problems, except that if tax or MOT are due during the period you will have to retrun to the UK to do the formalities.

 

From memory as a temporary resident you can keep a vehicle in France for up to 12 months - but it must be road legal in the UK at all times - hence the comment about tax and MOT. 

[powerdesal]

Andyh4,

No doubt the resident expert(s) will comment but I think you will find that your 12 months is actually 6 months.

[dave21478]

Completely irrelevant, sorry, but I would LOVE to own a mitsi Delica. Japanese import only though, so while there are a fair few in uk, its a bit of a no-go here, sadly.

 

[Sunday Driver]

The legal position is somewhat more complicated and is not limited to your vehicles......

From what you say, you are coming over to live in France and renting out your UK property, thereby effectively transferring your principal place of residence over here. If that is so, then you will fall within the immigration regulations and if you stay here for more than three months, then you are considered as having acquired residence status in France.

That gives rise to certain legal obligations:

1.  You must have sufficient resources not to become a burden on the state social security system and have healthcare insurance in place. If you are not eligible for an E-form entitling you to register for state heathcare insurance, then you must purchase your own private health cover.

2.  You will be classed as tax resident here and will be liable to income tax and social charges on certain elements of your worldwide income from the date of your arrival.

3.  As a resident of France, you will be required to register your vehicles here.  You are allowed one month from the date of your arrival to register the Citroen.  The Delica and the camper van will have to go through a special type approval inspection, so you are allowed four months in which to register them.  The six months mentioned earlier only applies to persons living abroad who are visiting France.

The fact that you 'might not' end up staying for any length of time is immaterial as far as your immediate residency status is concerned.

 

 

[Moulin85]

We know a couple who are doing this very ‘Try before you Buy’ thing at the moment in Spain. To ensure there UK Resident status is not effected they have made there daughters house there legal uk residence until they reach a decision.

[AnOther]

I'd be interested to know what 'legal UK residence' means [;-)]

 

[Moulin85]

When they sought advice they were told that their legal uk residence was the address at which they are ‘registered’ for the purposes of Taxation & Welfare, where they appeared on the electoral role and that they used on all official documentation such as driving licence, car registration etc.

[Scooby]

Not sure as it is as straightforward as that SD - intention does play a part in (ordinary) residence status and also whether you have a 'specific purpose' when moving abroad (i.e. taking out a lease of >3yrs duration, taking up employment etc).  If there is no intention to move to France permanently when you leave the UK, you have maintained a 'foyer fiscal' (i.e. primary residence) in the UK and your centre of economic interest (i.e. the bulk of your assets and your primary source of income) are in / derived from the UK and you spend less than 183 days in France you will not be French resident for tax purposes.  The reference above to 'legal UK residence' will be in the context of the 'foyer fiscal'.

[Sunday Driver]

The criteria for tax residency here is different to that of the UK and is defined by the French Impots as:

Vous devez habiter en France :

- de façon permanente, avec votre famille

- ou y posséder votre lieu de séjour principal

- ou y exercer votre activité professionnelle principale

- ou y avoir le centre de vos intérêts économiques

The criteria is met if any one of the above conditions applies.

Fiona's intention is to transfer the family home to the French property leaving the UK property available for commercial letting, so it is not clear how it could be deemed to remain their primary residence.

Having established their family home in the French property, then that would now constitute their principal residence and they would therefore appear to meet the above criteria.

Like any other person living in France and letting out their former UK home, the rental income will remain taxable in the UK but other income, eg from investments will be taxable in France.

 

 

[Scooby]

Residence and habitual residence are two different things.  The factors you listed are the same one's I listed and are those used as indicative guides of habitual residence. The OP still owns his / her home in the UK, we have no indication of the term of any letting arrangements either in the UK or France, no indication that they are taking up employment in France, no indication of their source of income (UK or French) and with a statement that they do not know at this stage whether they intend to stay.  In the absence of this information it is impossible to state that they have moved their place of primary residence for tax purposes.  You can only be habitually resident in one country albeit that you can be actually resident in more than one tax jurisdiction. 

[Fiona]

Hi, thanks for all your responses.  I have to admit though I am slightly confused as to what my status will be now!  We are letting our house out in the UK for the initial 12 month, with a 6 month break clause, short term agreement - although the tenants look like they are very keen to stay long term.  So regardless of what we do long term in France the likelihood is we would not move back as we had felt that we had outgrown it - so we would use the rental income to rent elsewhere in UK, or possibly to pay a mortgage.  Anyway that is neither here nor there in this scenario.  We are intially renting for 6 months in Ariege - one of the owners' parents are moving down to live in it so we are renting until that happens/  We will have no immediate income in France.  We have no jobs to go to.  Instead, we are living off money saved over the last couple of years when I have been contracting in IT.  As our UK rental income covers all of our French rent plus a reasonable surplus we could live off our savings for at least a year, possibly more.  However, we don't intend to do that.  Whilst contracting I set up my own limited company which I drew a salary from - that is how we will live during the next few months - drawing a salary from my company which will continue to be registered to the house we own (but will rent out) in the UK, as will our bank accounts. 

As we have been working so hard for the last couple of years to get ready to move we are giving ourselves about 3-4 months off just to rest, recuperate, bond again as a family and to see how we can survive/live long term.  Then after this period we will start to really look for work opportunities.  My partner is a builder and he intends to buy a property in the UK, while prices are low, to do up and rent which will provide another income.  After the 6 months or so (it's not cast in stone as the owner's parents have still to sell their place), it could be 7 or even 8 months, we will then decide if we are going to find a long term rental. or buy in France - or if we will move back to the Uk.  So that's about it!

BTW, Dave - the Delica is great!  We bought ours when we did a 3 month trip through France and Spain when I was on a year long maternity leave.  It is great for long journeys and it took us up to the ski resorts in the Pyrenees no problem.  Bit gutsy on diesel though. 

thanks again

Fiona

[andyh4]

[quote user="Fiona"]

 so we would use the rental income to rent elsewhere in UK, or possibly to pay a mortgage.  Anyway that is neither here nor there in this scenario.  Fiona

[/quote]

 

Actually I think that is entirely here and there.

It clealry demonstartes that you have no long term ambition at this stage to move your UK residence to another country.   I know SD (who I greatly respect) is quoting directly from the French rules, but as you do not intend to be employed in France, have a UK property (albeit rented out), will be travelling as UK tax payers, and will be relying on your UK social payments for health cover etc. I do not see that you can be seen as having taken up French residency during your 6 month holiday.

The rules are complex, but I strongly doubt - despite SD's posts - that you would be establishing French residence.  Even if you were (and I am going to hate myself at some stage later for posting this) I doubt anyone would care - or even notice.

[bigears]

hi

Actually in singapore at the moment, but thats irrelavent.  You establish tax residency in France by telling the french tax man and filling out a tax return.  If it was me I would not do it until your second year if you decide to stay.

[AnOther]

Ignore the above. Whilst it might be what a great many do that does not make it right and is NOT the way [:'(]

 

[jondeau]

I know a chap and his wife who have lived in Charente Maritime for more than 14 years........never registered themselves or anything else including various cars as living in France.

Still living there now.

Why make life complicated.

[mary]

HI Fiona

I have done a similar thing to you.  I have moved out here, now for 6 months, but my husband does the commute between the Uk and France.  We are renting here and renting our house out in the UK.  My husnabd is living with my parents and we use their address as his uk address..  WE did not want to register the car we have here in France, unless we had to, but I found a company that does extended Europena Car Insurance which is with Axa.  As long as you retun once in a year, it will cover you fully comp.  We also have extended European breakdown cover which they recomened, via another comany.  Although you are paying slightly more for the insurance, at least you have peace of mind that you are covered.  Lots of people keep their cars registered in the UK, and just retun to the uk one a year for MOT.  I even know a french family who temporarily lived in the UK and bought a car in the UK and they return once a year to the UK for the MOT.  I know it is not the correct way to do things, but lots of people do it.  You only have to look in  the car park at the Airports to see.  The comany is Stuart Collins and CO.  They are based in Wales.  I did a search on the net just for extended european car insuarnce and they came up.  Good luck

 

[Phil & Pat]

[quote user="jondeau"]

... Why make life complicated.

[/quote]

Yes, but what do you regard as complicated?  The registering or the avoiding of it?  [:D]

[Scooby]

Whether or not you are habitually resident in France (the original discussion), if you are physically there for 6 months or more you will be resident for that year.   Tax evasion is a criminal offence - period.

[AnOther]

I'm afraid we are entering the murky world of the chancers and refuseniks now, not a path a I would recommend for anyone however long their friends and/or acquaintances have been getting away with it. And yes, I do appreciate the apparent conflict with my signature but that is just a bit of fun and I don't say what I've been getting away with [:P]

[quote user="vida "]we did not want to register the car we have here in France, unless we had to[/quote]

I love these comments 'we did not want to comply with the law' [:D][:D][:D]

Vida, you 'had to' register your car after keeping it in France for 6 months. Beyond that and it is in the country illegally irresepective of UK insurance MOT etc. etc.

I'll leave the potential ramifications of that to your imagination and concience [kiss]

Stay lucky

 

[Ron Avery]

Ernie when will you learn that you are wasting your time with some people? 

They are quite happy to sign documents with "give us your money" firms like AXA despite the documents saying that any information given that is false will invalidate the policy (like a false UK address) and yet they still believe that they are covered by this insurance and quote the airport junkyards as proof of this, what planet are these people on?? 

To write "As long as you retun (sic) once in a year, it will cover you fully comp." is really in the realms of la la land but if they want to believe that good luck to them.  Lets hope they don't find out the hard way that insurance companies even AXA are not really stupid[:@]

[AnOther]

I know Ron, I know [:(]

Re Stuart Collins insurance, I have my doubts as to their business model but in any case, even if kosher, what their insurance cannot do is subvert local laws, such has the 6 month rule in France and most other EU member states.

I would personally also be a bit sceptical and wary of their claims procedure which is:

"based on Gibraltar with local claims service operating from Spain."

Hey ho though.

 

[allanb]

[quote user="jondeau"]I know a chap and his wife who have lived in Charente Maritime for more than 14 years........never registered themselves or anything else including various cars as living in France.   

Still living there now.[/quote]They must be in breach of several regulations, but leaving that aside, what do they do about health care?

[andyh4]

Ernie Ron

I think these policies do what they say.  They provide 12 month insurance across Europe - that is travelling from one country to another over a 12 month period.  Not for residing for 12 month outside 12 rue de la gare and breaking all sorts of laws and regulations.

 

But as you say, no one is going to listen if they have already got the policy.

[cooperlola]

Andy, I am sure you are  correct.  There are days when I think I'll write to one of these companies - all innocent like and say "I'm going to live in France but don't want to change my UK registration.  Can I buy a policy from you which will cover my car for a whole year?" and see what they say.  Because I bet the answer would be a big fat no.

As far as tax is concerned, assuming Fiona really does not know if she'll be staying beyond six months, then so long as she arrives before 30th June in any year, she won't legally need to make a tax declaration in France before the spring of the following year and if she goes back to the UK before the year ends and doesn't stop paying tax there, she won't have broken any laws that I can think of on the tax front.  But where she'd get her healthcare from is anybody's guess.  It's so complicated and fraught with danger if things go wrong that the best thing, imo, is to behave as though France will be your permanent home and just face the fact that you may have to undo everything again if you go back.