French car - UK address

[Deauville]

Does anyone know if it is permissible to register a French car using a UK address - ie keep a French motor here but have the address on the carte grise the same as UK residence? I shouldn't think it's easy even if it is allowed but I'd still like to know if it can be done.

[Will]

Not possible. EU law says that vehicles have to registered (and insured) in the country where the keeper is resident.

[Deauville]

Thanks Will - thought so

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Will"]Not possible. EU law says that vehicles have to registered (and insured) in the country where the keeper is resident.

[/quote]

On the basis of the above, those who keep a French registered and insured car at their "holiday home" in France are breaking the law - yes?

[Jako]

Yes.

When you get a speeding ticket (or whatever ) while driving in your French- registered "holiday car" and show your UK driving licence is when the fun begins. Now the French police may force you to change your UK licence into a French one in order to subtract points.

And then you say " I live in the UK" but that is not possible because you have a French plate on the car and it is your car, so you live in France.[:D]

[woolybanana]

Nah, can't be right as so many Brits have British plates and French insurance. I know of one who changes plates when he changes countries.

[Jako]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Nah, can't be right as so many Brits have British plates and French insurance.[/quote]

It is still illegal. And I read on another forum that an insurer was ordered by the police to send a letter to all their British customers to change their plates to French.

[woolybanana]

Bullies

[Pickles]

[quote user="powerdesal"][quote user="Will"]Not possible. EU law says that vehicles have to registered (and insured) in the country where the keeper is resident.

[/quote]

On the basis of the above, those who keep a French registered and insured car at their "holiday home" in France are breaking the law - yes?[/quote]

No. If a vehicle is based in a particular country - spending more than 6 months there in 12 months (eg it spends most of the time at a holiday home in France), then (for the overwhelming majority of vehicles) that is where it MUST be registered.

Regards

Pickles

[Pickles]

[quote user="Jako"]When you get a speeding ticket (or whatever ) while driving in your French- registered "holiday car" and show your UK driving licence is when the fun begins. Now the French police may force you to change your UK licence into a French one in order to subtract points. [/quote]

If you actually live in France, then yes. If your main residence is in the UK, then the loss of points is meaningless.

[quote user="Jako"]And then you say " I live in the UK" but that is not possible because you have a French plate on the car and it is your car, so you live in France. [/quote]

It is entirely possible for you to be driving a French registered car whilst being resident elsewhere.

Regards

Pickles

[EuroTrash]

Pickles, that's what I always thought until quite recently. But in fact it is correct that under EU law you can only register a car in the country where you are a permanent resident. I suppose they are expecting your car to go with you wherever you go, so if you and your car are in a country for more than 6 months that would normally make it your country of residence. Would that life were that simple.

What I still haven't worked out is exactly what they mean by resident - does that mean 'ordinarily resident' as HMRC says, or fiscally resident, or what? I work and pay taxes in France (as a non-resident), I work and pay taxes and NI in the UK, could I in theory register a car in each country?

[Jako]

[quote user="Pickles"]

It is entirely possible for you to be driving a French registered car whilst being resident elsewhere.

[/quote]

Naturally, but when you are the owner of the car, it is illegal.

Most foreigners (=not French) do not fully understand the procedure by which they are given a French plate.

YOU declare that you live in France by delivering a "justificatif de domicile" (EDF bill). If you live in the UK and your second home is in France, your "domicile" is in the UK, not in France. But you write down your French address because...otherwise you don not get the French plate. So there is a piece of paper filed with your name and signature on it stating that you live in France.

That means that the Gendarme may force you to change your drivers licence to French when you own a French registered car and investigate possible fraud when you declare you live in the UK.

@ Eurotrash.

There is only one country in Europe where you declare your world income, even when you pay tax in multiple countries.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Jako"]@ Eurotrash.
There is only one country in Europe where you declare your world income, even when you pay tax in multiple countries.
[/quote]

 

One?

I can think of at least 2 and I suspect there are even more.

[Pickles]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Pickles, that's what I always thought until quite recently. But in fact it is correct that under EU law you can only register a car in the country where you are a permanent resident.[/quote]

Could you please quote your source for this? I have been digging around and I can only find non-authoritative sources for this statement - eg "your Europe", which does not claim to be exhaustive but only to cover general cases. Incidentally, I have lodged a specific query via "Your Europe" on this topic.

Regards

Pickles

[EuroTrash]

Hi Pickles, well actually it was the Your Europe site that eventually convinced me. I would very much like it to be possible for me to have car in France but the europa site says "You can only register a car in the country where you normally live or have permanent residence.

You cannot register your car in a country where you have a secondary residence or holiday house" so that seemed pretty definite to me. I have also seen this said on French forums when Belgians want to register a car in France, you have probably found the same references, but again no cast iron source. To be honest I couldn't quite figure out how 'authoritative' the Your Europe site is. However it also says on the Carte Grise http://www.carte-grise.org/faq.htm#q30 site that foreigners only need to register their cars once they have declared themselves resident - but as far as I can make out it doesn't specifically say that they can't do it sooner if they want. It also says that you can't register a car at a maison secondaire but the reasons given for this seem to be aimed at French with a maison princ and a maison sec. Would be very interested to know what the response to your query will be.

[Pickles]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Hi Pickles, well actually it was the Your Europe site that eventually convinced me. I would very much like it to be possible for me to have car in France but the europa site says "You can only register a car in the country where you normally live or have permanent residence.

You cannot register your car in a country where you have a secondary residence or holiday house" so that seemed pretty definite to me.[/quote]

Yes, I saw that as well. However, the example that they give is of a person who spends 3 months of the year in France and I got the impression that he wishes to register at his holiday home the car that he uses day-to-day in his home country. I had a look at areas I knew more about, and came to the conclusion that this was somewhat a "noddy" guide, trying to stop people from evading tax and/or fines in their home countries.

[quote user="EuroTrash"]I have also seen this said on French forums when Belgians want to register a car in France, you have probably found the same references, but again no cast iron source. To be honest I couldn't quite figure out how 'authoritative' the Your Europe site is. However it also says on the Carte Grise http://www.carte-grise.org/faq.htm#q30 site that foreigners only need to register their cars once they have declared themselves resident - but as far as I can make out it doesn't specifically say that they can't do it sooner if they want. It also says that you can't register a car at a maison secondaire but the reasons given for this seem to be aimed at French with a maison princ and a maison sec. Would be very interested to know what the response to your query will be.[/quote]

Yes, I've been exploring the same dead ends as you! There are a few things that are going on here: one is the definition of domicile, which I think is part of Jako's thinking. In the Code Civil it says that "Le domicile de tout Français, quant à l'exercice de ses droits civils, est au lieu où il a son principal établissement." I believe that is in this case specific to French citizens; the case of non-residents having property in France is not defined in this regard. I think that in regards to non-residents, the French Govt is more concerned with having a valid French address via which the owner/keeper can be contacted (bearing in mind that techncally the carte grise does not establish or record ownership). With regards to "foreigners only need to register their cars once they have declared themselves resident": this is something of a red herring, because what it is dealing with is the distinction between those who are visitors - who can bring in a vehicle for up to 6 months in 12 months without having to re-register it - and those who are intending to become permanent residents, for whom the "re-registration within 1 month" clock could be deemed to start ticking as soon as they enter France. I came across the same "maison secondaire" queries as you, but again the ones for whom there was a definitive "you can't do that" answer were entirely of French resident people wishing to register their cars using an address that was not their main French residence but their French holiday home address.

I did come across amongst the EU legal material a requirement that cars registered to a business which was registered in one country had to be re-registered in the country in which they are habitually used.

One of the problems is that the EU legislation tends to be more concerned about the cross-border stuff (ie temporary importation), whereas if a car is based in France then it really is a French matter ...

For the time being, however, faced with the choices of either:

1) having a French reg'd, insured, CT'd car registered to our French holiday home, and not being able to drive it in the UK

2) having a UK registered, insured, MoT'd and VRT'd car that we can only use for 6 in 12 months in France and have to drive to and fro to the UK

3) Going for any of the illegal UK reg, French CT, French Insurance or whatever combinations

we are sticking with (1). However, as I have written before, I would think even more carefully about the cost of having a car here  - especially a recent one - vs hiring when necessary.

I am mindful of the numbers of "I think" and "I believe" in what I have written ...

Regards

Pickles

[sid]

Time to rub the lamp and call up the genie ..... Sunday Driver, are you there????  [:D]

(I'm just checking that the lamp has the correct E number on it!).

[woolybanana]

Good Lord, SD jumping from a lamp, covered in oil, having been rubbed......[6]

[Loiseau]

I shall be following the outcome of your investigations closely, Pickles.

It seems impossible to get a clear response from the authorities on the "voiture secondaire" situation.

I bought a new small French car 8 or 9 years ago; it lives in France, is insured, CT'd etc in France, and has a French registration plate appropriate to the departement. My French insurance agent is absolutely aware of the holiday-home aspect, and raised no obstacles (though I realise we are not talking about insurance issues here). I suggested I ought to use my UK address, but he said No, it was where the car was normally kept that mattered.

It has made the odd brief trip back to the UK. I discovered - probably on this forum - that taking it to the UK might be illegal, so tried to check with the DVLA - who sent me the same vague wording as appears on their website.

I have had a minor French speeding ticket - though it was via a speed camera, so I just got a letter, and paid on-line. They said it would be one point off my licence, and I wondered if I should go and show my UK licence to a gendarme - but then I read that one point is not actually deducted unless you get something else in the same year, so I did nothing. The letter did not ask for my licence details; I have no idea if the gendarmes ran a check and couldn't find me on the French system.

This thread is the first intimation I have had that it might be illegal to drive the car in France as well as in the UK.

It seems to be a lose-lose situation!

Oh, the gendarmes did want to come and look at the car once, in my absence, to eliminate vehicles of that colour and model from some enquiries. My French neighbour contacted them, and arranged to show it to them; I am sure he would have explained that its owner lived abroad.

Incidentally, I thought that nowadays the deduction of points was possible across Euro-frontiers (though how they can be *deducted* from a British licence when our system is to *add* them for transgressions is a bit mind-boggling).

Yeah, bring on SD please!!

Angela

[Sunday Driver]

The situation here is actually quite simple.

If you live in France and want to drive a car on the roads here, then the French are entitled to tax you for that pleasure and they insist on you registering yourself as the owner so that they can collect the taxes, eg VAT, registration tax, pollution tax and so on.  That's why people who move to France and bring their UK car over with them are obliged by law to register it here and pay the taxes before they can drive on the roads here.

However, the situation is different for people who live abroad and just come to France for a visit.  EU regulations prohibit the French from imposing their taxes as long as the visiting car spends no more than six months in any twelve month period in France. That's why tourists crossing the French border don't have to drive straight to the nearest prefecture and hand over a fistful of euros to obtain a carte grise for their car in order to continue driving it in France.

In the case of a foreign resident who has a holiday home here and opts to leave a car here for less than six months, then the above exemption applies.  If he leaves it here for more than six months or permanently, then he is obliged to register the car here and pay the French taxes. 

There is nothing in EU or French regulations to prevent a holiday home owner from bringing a car over and registering it from day one, regardless of how long he intends to keep it here. Provided he has an address to which the vehicle can be registered, then the French will happily take his money.

As Pickles says, it really is a French matter....

 

[Loiseau]

Yes, SD, but that seems to apply either to permament incomers to France, or to people bringing over a UK-reg car to leave at their holiday home?

I'm not trying to wriggle out of any taxes that I know of.

Mine was purchased, new, in France, subject to whatever French taxes were applicable, but the address on the carte grise is that of me at my holiday home. It's not a "visiting car". It's more permanent than I am. It remains tucked up in my (French) garage between my visits. I think this is the same scenario that Pickles is envisaging.

None of the official answers, either side of the Channel, seems to fit the situation.

Angela

[AnOther]

I think a few pairs of knickers are getting into an unnecessary twist with this.

Yes, if you are French resident then you must register your vehicle here but nowhere can I find where it says that if not you cannot therefore I don't think you can automatically extrapolate from it that as non resident holiday home owner you are prohibited from doing likewise.

[EuroTrash]

[quote user="AnOther"]I think a few pairs of knickers are getting into an unnecessary twist with this.

Yes, if you are French resident then you must register your vehicle here but nowhere can I find where it says that if not you cannot therefore I don't think you can automatically extrapolate from it that as non resident holiday home owner you are prohibited from doing likewise.

[/quote]

I'm going along with SD et al because it suits me - but so why does

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/registration/formalities/index_en.htm

say (in a red box with a yellow exclamation mark next to it) "You can only register a car in the country where you normally live or have permanent residence."

You cannot register your car in a country where you have a secondary residence or holiday house" because to me that seems to be saying exactly what AnOther says that noone is saying (if you see what mean)

[Loiseau]

You mean this sort of quote from the FAQs, ET:

"Q

I'm Italian and every year I take a 3-month holiday in my second home in the French Alps, taking my car with me. Can I register my car in France?

A

NO - You can only register your car in the country where you are permanently resident."

Though it's not clear if the Italian wants to leave the car in France 12/12, or drive it in Italy with French plates for 9 months of the year. And he's clearly talking about re-registering his Italian car, rather than buying a French one.

It does sound as if you are right, ET :-((

Maybe I had better think of selling the French car, before it lands me in the m*erd*.

Angela

[woolybanana]

No Angela, noone will hassle you.