Book on paying tax in France

[Kitty]

Can I have some recommendations for a book (in English) about tax systems in France, including how to move from paying tax in the UK to paying tax in France?

I have 'Payer mois d'impots pour Les Nuls' but it would be great if there was an English version.  I've looked on Amazon etc but you can't beat personal recommendations.

 

[Clair]

This might help to begin with: http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/

[Will]

The problem with books about things like taxation is that they are often out of date as soon as they are published. The link above gives a useful overview, but for more detail the only book that can really be recommended is this one:
http://www.pkfguernsey.com/index.php?page=53

It is updated every year.

[Kitty]

Spot on.  Parfait.  Thank you Clair and Will - both of these ideas are just what I need to start my research.

 

[Casper Slides]

I've been watching a few French forums for British ex-pats for a while now and I am terribly confused by the expats in France. It seems that you are all queueing up to pay tax in France when you should be doing your utmost not to pay any tax at all - what's the deal?

I spend the majority of my year in Spain where not paying tax is the national sport. Nobody there would dream of putting their hands up and saying "look I earned this much last year how do I pay tax on it?"

I spend the rest of the year in France where I legally do not have to pay much in the way of tax (certainly nothing on income) so it does not really affect me. However, from all the people that I speak to it seems that the national sport amongst the British ex-pats here is either discovering new taxes to pay or denouncing other ex-pats who they think might not be paying their "fair share". 

Is it that British ex-pats in France are overtly honest or that they are incredibly small minded and want to ensure that their neighbours suffer as much as them?

[parsnips]

[quote user="casperslides"]

I've been watching a few French forums for British ex-pats for a while now and I am terribly confused by the expats in France. It seems that you are all queueing up to pay tax in France when you should be doing your utmost not to pay any tax at all - what's the deal?

I spend the majority of my year in Spain where not paying tax is the national sport. Nobody there would dream of putting their hands up and saying "look I earned this much last year how do I pay tax on it?"

I spend the rest of the year in France where I legally do not have to pay much in the way of tax (certainly nothing on income) so it does not really affect me. However, from all the people that I speak to it seems that the national sport amongst the British ex-pats here is either discovering new taxes to pay or denouncing other ex-pats who they think might not be paying their "fair share". 

Is it that British ex-pats in France are overtly honest or that they are incredibly small minded and want to ensure that their neighbours suffer as much as them?

[/quote]

Hi casperslides,

         I spend some of my time helping new arrivals (usually retired people) from the UK . In my experience they are usually paying tax on their pensions and savings in the UK at the UK's inflated rates, but many ,fearing the unknown, do try to remain invisible to the french taxman(an ultimately futile effort,if they pay local taxes or are in the health system).  I can do a simulated french tax assessment for them which ,almost invariably, shows that they will be less taxed in the french system.

         UK pensioners are in a very advantageous position taxwise in france because they do not pay social contributions on their pensions , and if ,for example they have rents from the UK or a small govt. pension, they get full personal allowances there.

          Finding out as much as possible about the french system (which is complicated,so therefore has lots of loopholes) is essential if people are to maximise their advantages by rearranging their finances.

          Enquiring about the system is not the same as rushing to  volunteer to join it.

          As for the ex-pats who want to get their neighbours caught for taxes, they are obviously catching the french love of equality by levelling down.  

[mint]

Parsnips, I wouldn't normally qualify your informed contributions but I must just butt in this once and say that you do pay social contributions on any annuities you have.

[dr orloff]

The process can look daunting but with a smidgeon of good advice it is actually very straightforward for most people.

You could try describing your situation in a bit more detail and asking about the implications.  You don't have to say what you earn, just the different types of income you have.

[parsnips]

[quote user="sweet 17"]Parsnips, I wouldn't normally qualify your informed contributions but I must just butt in this once and say that you do pay social contributions on any annuities you have.[/quote]

Hi,

 I was trying to be brief; in fact ,if your annuity is the result of a defined contribution occupational scheme, it should be declared as "pension" and provided you are entitled to E121, will not be subject to CSGetc.  Only if your annuity is from a purely personal private scheme to which no one else has ever contributed, should it be declared in "rentes viageges" and subject to CSGetc.

[Judith]

[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="sweet 17"]Parsnips, I wouldn't normally qualify your informed contributions but I must just butt in this once and say that you do pay social contributions on any annuities you have.[/quote]

Hi,

 I was trying to be brief; in fact ,if your annuity is the result of a defined contribution occupational scheme, it should be declared as "pension" and provided you are entitled to E121, will not be subject to CSGetc.  Only if your annuity is from a purely personal private scheme to which no one else has ever contributed, should it be declared in "rentes viageges" and subject to CSGetc.

[/quote]

Could I ask for a further clarification, please.  I combined all my personal pensions, some contributed to by previous employers, some the government, and some only mine, so now I'm not sure what that makes that particular part of my pension pot.  (I am not talking about occupational or state pension, just the defined contributions bit.

Thanks

[parsnips]

[quote user="Judith"][quote user="parsnips"][quote user="sweet 17"]Parsnips, I wouldn't normally qualify your informed contributions but I must just butt in this once and say that you do pay social contributions on any annuities you have.[/quote]

Hi,

 I was trying to be brief; in fact ,if your annuity is the result of a defined contribution occupational scheme, it should be declared as "pension" and provided you are entitled to E121, will not be subject to CSGetc.  Only if your annuity is from a purely personal private scheme to which no one else has ever contributed, should it be declared in "rentes viageges" and subject to CSGetc.

[/quote]

Could I ask for a further clarification, please.  I combined all my personal pensions, some contributed to by previous employers, some the government, and some only mine, so now I'm not sure what that makes that particular part of my pension pot.  (I am not talking about occupational or state pension, just the defined contributions bit.

Thanks

[/quote]

Hi,

     In my opinion,(and it is only an opinion), as at least part of your present pension pot was contributed by employers, then any annuity purchased with it would be declared as a "pension" and not as a "rente viagere" it would thus get a smaller allowance against income tax, but in most cases this would be more than compensated for by not having to pay CSGetc. at 12.1% on the taxable portion of a "rente viagere".

[mint]

Yes, Parsnips, it is as I feared.  OH's annuities were paid for entirely by himself as a self-employed person of 40 something years.

Who'd be self-employed, eh?

[parsnips]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Yes, Parsnips, it is as I feared.  OH's annuities were paid for entirely by himself as a self-employed person of 40 something years.

Who'd be self-employed, eh?

[/quote]

Hi sweet,

      As you have seen the declaration of the different types of pension is a complicated and technical matter. The taxman cannot expect you to be an expert in this , when many tax agents are themselves confused.

      I always maintain that you can choose to declare in whichever manner suits you. You are not required to be very specific ,only declaring a total figure for each spouse. If you are under E121 and your total taxable income is around 25000€ or less, it will pay to declare as "pension" as the tax on it will be less than the certain 12.1% CSGetc. if declared as "rente".If your income is likely to be substantially higher you can PM me and I'll  give you an estimate.( If you are not on E121 yet you may have to pay CSGetc.on all pensions till you qualify--apparently they are tightening up on this ,I have read elsewhere.)  

     In the unlikely event of the taxman querying this and asking for details you have only to give them, and plead ignorance--under their customer "charter" they will give you the benefit of the doubt and correct the assessment without penalty. 

[mint]

Thank you for your kind (and irristible offer), Parsnips.

Will get the figures together and PM you.

[Judith]

Parsnips

Thanks - I think I'll play "dumb" when it comes to filling in the forms, presume it is a "pension" and see what results!

[giantpanda]

Hi!

Stop looking for a book in English for  income taxation purposes ( exceptions would be just one on the principles ), because it is by definition out of date, taking the time for publication.

In French, if you want to be up to date, you have nearly each financial paper or monthly, that publishes a: How to declare you current income?

These are available usually in January at newsagents, or even in supermarket.

I would personally recommend: Le Particulier  Impôts 2008 ( that is the coming one ) Guide de la Déclaration de Revenus ( about 280 pages - price ( last one ) Euro 7.

Yours,

giantpanda

[dr orloff]

Useful GP, but that is normally only part of the picture.  Many UK residents moving to France want to know how to deal with UK derived income stream - that is governed by the UK France tax convention which overrides French law and those items are unlikely to be dealt with in such type of french publications. A book written in English is much more likely to.

[Sunday Driver]

Alternatively, you could always check out the tax FAQ here on the forum......[Www]