Did you get a professional survey done prior to buying in France ?

[Pete-Normandy]

I'd be interested to hear if you did or did you decide that the property looked OK and take it at face value (sold as seen, as in French Civil Law)

[Le_Jars]

We did, but it wasn't really necessary (in hindsight). We did it to

reassure ourselves that we weren't buying a pile of rubble-to-be as it

was very cheap and therefore the survey was a small price to pay for

peace of mind, as we weren't living in France then. We have bought

another property since and didn't even dream of having a survey done.

[Deimos]

I did (by a UK RICS surveyor). Same reasons as Le_Jars - reassurance. Never actually got the survey report through but did spend quite a long time chatting to the surveyor after he had been over the property. Trouble with survey reports (in my experience anyway) is that you tend to have very little "come back" as there are normally such broad sweeping exclusions and "could not ...", "recommend ..." (weazle words) that legal recourse must be very difficult. What I really wanted was a knowledgeable person to look over the property and pass a judgement on its condition and problems - which is what I got (over the telephone).

I actually had the survey done before signing the CdeV to avoid difficult conditions in that document.

Ian

[zeb]

Any surveyor who had seen ours would have had a fit!!

But now, if I was going to spend 250K upwards, I'd probably get someone in to point out less than obvious faults.

[Skye]

I thought about it but when the estate agent suggested a local architect to go over the house with me and ask as many questions as I liked - I took that option instead. All in all we spent about two hours in the house for which he charged me 75E - it was very useful as he pointed out a number of problems I wouldn't have noticed and answered the questions I had. So - reassuring and pretty inexpensive - ended up buying the house and have no regrets. Of course this route depends on your asking a lot of questions and being willing to live with not having anything in writing, but as noted above getting any recompense in any case would be a long shot.

[Cassis]

No, bought it as seen.  Just gave it a good look over checking general condition of walls, roof,  woodwork etc. and had a poke around the rafters etc in the grenier with a screwdriver.

That first winter we did contact a surveyor because we noticed some damp patches appearing on the interior walls.  The surveyor diagnosed chronic groundwater damp problem and said we would need to have the walls and possibly the floor damp proof injected.  This turned out to be complete cobblers; I suspected another sort of problem when we got an enormous water bill shortly afterwards.  Turns out it was a leaking water pipe under the (concrete) floor.  Plumber fixed it in under a day by bypassing said pipes.

PS Pleased to say that the previous owners also paid the enormous water bill!

[Anton Redman]

The first house was so cheap that a when a couple of Isabel's ex colleagues offered to go over and survey then house we pointed out that their expenses even if then went TT and hitched hiked would be twice what the house cost.

For the second house we looked for damp, bounced up and down on the floor(I went through the floor at the first house), flushed the toilets and basins at the same time. and took the view that there was nothing I could not deal with provided the purchase price was OK.

UK surveyors reports are now so constrained by professional insurance that unless you button the guy off the record you start to wonder why the whole place has not fallen down. Viz :

<< We felt strong tracesof Nymphomania in two of the bedrooms and suggets you consult a proffesional Nymphomaniac or Fridician to ensure there are no potential problems in this area >>

[Gardian]

[quote user="Deimos"]

I did (by a UK RICS surveyor). Same reasons as Le_Jars - reassurance. Never actually got the survey report through but did spend quite a long time chatting to the surveyor after he had been over the property. Trouble with survey reports (in my experience anyway) is that you tend to have very little "come back" as there are normally such broad sweeping exclusions and "could not ...", "recommend ..." (weazle words) that legal recourse must be very difficult. What I really wanted was a knowledgeable person to look over the property and pass a judgement on its condition and problems - which is what I got (over the telephone).

I actually had the survey done before signing the CdeV to avoid difficult conditions in that document.

Ian

[/quote]

Exactly the same for us.  Put it this way, you'd never forgive yourself if you didn't employ sombody and then there was a big problem.  I guess that nine times out of ten, you'd spot the real nasty that they would - but the other one occasion?????  

[Tresco]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]Viz :

<< We felt strong tracesof Nymphomania in two of the bedrooms and suggets you consult a proffesional Nymphomaniac or Fridician to ensure there are no potential problems in this area >>

[/quote]

A Laugh out Loud moment where it was least expected. Thanks Anton[:D]

No survey here. I was doing my normal 'freaking out' thing..."we wouldn't dream of buying a house in England without a 'survey'" etc andonandon.

However. There was little 'right' about the house, apart from the fact that it was standing up straight. It was a shell, with a roof full of visible holes, wood eating insects, 50 year old wiring and plumbing. Blessedly there was no septic tank to search for/be disappointed in, the guy just 'went' in the garden/field'. The living room floor (lovely oak parquet) disintegrated as we walked across it, to reveal soil.

I don't know. I suppose everyone should do what they think is best. The fact is in England everyone has to get a survey, or they get no loan.   There, you are not allowed to take a risk.

Here, you get the loan and you are able to take the risk. Our loan was about thruppence. I would have been a lot more insistent, and braved the charges of being a 'nag' if it had been a few bob more.

 

 

[JayJay]

Face value here. No survey on our last house & that was 450+ yrs old & we never had any problems. Or on the house we're in now, a much younger property. No problems here either.

[Just Katie]

[quote user="Deimos"]

. Trouble with survey reports (in my experience anyway) is that you tend to have very little "come back" as there are normally such broad sweeping exclusions and "could not ...", "recommend ..." (weazle words) that legal recourse must be very difficult.

Ian

[/quote]

That is a point.  However, RICS surveyors must take out an indemnity insurance and, as long as the client instructs that a full survey is carried out rather than a mere valuation, if a defect is not identified the client has a right to complain to RICS and, claim from the indemnity insurance.  Therefore the signed survey report acts as a guarantee.

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]

UK surveyors reports are now so

constrained by professional insurance that unless you button the guy

off the record you start to wonder why the whole place has not fallen

down. Viz :

<< We felt strong tracesof Nymphomania in two of the bedrooms

and suggets you consult a proffesional Nymphomaniac or Fridician to

ensure there are no potential problems in this area >>

[/quote]

[:D]

I've never had a survey report that wasn't rendered useless by frantic

botty-covering. The bit that always p****d me of the most was that

nothing definite could ever be said about the roof beacause "access was

not possible." Don't these people know about ladders?

The last (and most expensive) house we bought in the UK was not

surveyed by us. The bank, for reasons best known to themselves, did not

want a valuation survey done either. It was in 1995 and I think they

took the view that housing stock was undervalued or something.

 Instead we had our fathers look over the building. My dad spotted

some woodworm under the stairs. After examining the floor beneath he

pronounced it old and not a problem. When we came to sell the buyers

had a "full" survey done. I was in when he came around and he too

spotted the holes. "Oh that's old," I said, pointing out the absence of

dust. "You could have cleaned that up before I arrived," he pointed

out, "an expert opinion will be required." So an expert was summoned,

who looked at the floor for traces of dust (amongst other things) and

pronounced the woodworm old and the wood previously treated. He charged

£450, my dad was the price of a G&T. The expression "gravy train"

comes to mind.

That surveyor didn't look at the roof either. Which was a shame as we

had had a loft conversion done and the roof was about a year old. He

could have inspected 90% of it by standing on a pair of steps and

sticking his head out of the veluxes...

[Cassis]

You'll often find articles in magazines re buying in France which strongly advise having a survey done.  These articles tend to be written by surveyors, surprisingly.

[Pete-Normandy]

I love this place, bags and shed loads of common sense,  THANKS

[Cerise]

No survey here or in UK - got a builder to look round though.  People often think they have had survey in UK but a lot of bank/building society 'surveys' are just drive by valuations unless you ask for something more. 

Anton - what have you done about the Nymphomania - other than not telling the neighbours in case it is contagious?[6]

 

[Cerise]

Sorry - duplicate post

[Anton Redman]

[quote user="Cerise"]

Anton - what have you done about the Nymphomania - other than not telling the neighbours in case it is contagious?[6]

[/quote]

Nothing Isabel is enjoying it so much it seems a shame to mention the floors may give way, Neighbours are outside the sysmic risk zone. Checked with the notaire who said it was inconceivable that anybody French would feel their property was at risk from the  impact of the British making love.If we were selling in the immediate future would have checked out the perpetually pregnant Sarah Benney to ensure their was no risk of underming prperty values in the UK market  

[Pangur]

We got a survey done by http://www.adia.org/ which we found incredibly useful, and well worth the money (c €500).  We wanted a second opinion from an independent source who knew what they were talking about.  A year after purchasing, we've found the remarks and recommendations he made in the detailed diagnostic report spot on.  The report allowed us calulate pretty accurately what work needed to be done and budget accordingly.

[P]

In the UK the normal survey is for a mortgage which at the least might mean the estate agent proving to the surveyor that similar properties within a half mile area have sold at or above the price.

If a full survey is required these, as those in France will normally contain the clauses that say that nothing was dismantled during the survey - therefore you only have the surveyors eyes and intuition to go on.

Perhaps what the surveyor has is time. You walk into a house have a quick tour round and decide to buy - or you go back a second time to confirm that this is the house.

Now, when the surveyor visits he will spend time closely looking at all aspects. The buyer could have done this but would probably feel uncomfotable spending a coupl of hours scouring over the property looking as to its condition.

You can see broken or missing roof tiles. You can see cracks in walls. You can look in fuseboards to see the condition of the wiring. You can look at the plumbing to see its condition.

Perhaps we should feel less uncomfortable in thoroughly viewing a property and, in the first instance making a thorough inspection of the property and only then calling in an expert if we want reassurance or do not feel that we can rely on ourselves.

Paul

[Anglo-Frenchman]

I’m always intrigued by these kinds of forum topics.  I should state at the outset that I am a practicing RICS qualified surveyor working and living in France and I would like to add my biased 2 cents to the discussion – for what they’re worth.

Before going further I think it is worth explaining what a survey really is.  As one of the previous correspondents has correctly pointed out the ½ hour tick box mortgage valuation that all borrowers get is NOT a survey and to think otherwise is a mistake. It tells you virtually nothing about the property and is simply a tool that tells the lender that if you default on the mortgage and they have to re-possess that they will recoup their investment.   

A Home Buyer Survey & Valuation Report is a more in depth inspection that focuses upon the main areas of concern with a property, provides a valuation and is carried out to a strict RICS format.  It is recommended for properties less than 150 years old that are ‘generally’ in good condition. This usually takes me about 3 hours to complete the inspection. 

A Building Survey, formally known as a Full Structural Survey takes about 6 hours of site work and is a nut-and-bolts analysis of the building with an illustrated report of 20-30 pages plus site plans and around 200 photographs.  I generally include as much background information as I can source plus historic analysis of the building and its development through the years – where relevant.   

3-6 hours is long time to spend in a house and you learn quite a lot about external noise, heavy traffic and irritating neighbours in a way that potential buyers of property seldom get to experience in the quick once over they usually get 

In the United Kingdom of the 1.4m house transactions that take place each year only about 1:5 choose to have either of the latter two surveys.

The decision whether to commission a survey depends upon you own personal point of view and also to some degree your experiences.  If you are going to spend a credit card sized sum upon a four walls and a dirt floor then in all probability you have some clue as to what you are getting into and unless you are looking for design services, a survey is perhaps not for you.  If on the other hand you intend spending your life savings upon your retirement home then maybe you should be more cautious. 

I am always amused by those pouring scorn upon having surveys carried out and those who view all building professionals as blood-sucking parasites with ulterior motives and of dubious professional ethics.  The surveyors that I know (and I know quite number) are all men and women of integrity who strive to achieve the best that they can for their clients and I would advise anyone who is less than satisfied by their own surveyor to complain to the RICS about it.  If the surveyor is not a member of the RICS and did not come by recommendation then perhaps your choice was not the best one possible. Getting a builder or architect is always an option but can you be sure that they are not looking at you as a cash-cow? 

I would guess that about only 3 out of the last 100 surveys that I have carried out in France resulted in a report that caused the buyer not to go ahead with the purchase which goes to show that the majority of properties are not full of hidden dangers and defects. None the less I have come across my share of friendly little Frenchmen who failed to mention that each year their Kitchen becomes a river as the run-off from the fields to the rear passes through their property, or that the ground floor is held up on Acrow props. 

To the respondent that bemoaned the articles in French magazines written by building experts, I am one such writer and I make no apology for the fact. The articles (for which no fee is received) serve as interest top readers and can occasionally lead to new work.  At the end of the day I am a businessman in a competitive market and such articles help to promote our practice and help keep our name in the public domain.   

[Anton Redman]

In the UK the last house I purchased had a Full Structural Survey.  I then telephoned the surveyor whose advice off the record to find out what it meant between the lines << It was that it was in good condition but I would need to spend some money on maintenance and pointing in the next ten years >>

The member of the RICS who surveyed the house for our purchasers did a very thorough job and pointed out two problem areas but said that further work was probably not required :

Drains : Very good guy turned up with CCTV equipement  requested we flush all toilets (empty) and observed the flow. Replaced one slightly misplaced grill and said there were no problems. Propspective purchasers tried to renegotiate on the grounds of mild calcium deposits in the ceramic pipes ( house was 97 years old at the time ) Charged the purchasers about £ 800

Damp : Spotty Youth turns up pimping for work for for damp proofing company spends less than 10 minutes looking at the potentially damp areas ( versus 45 minutes for surveyor) , suggests that injecting a new DPC is essential. Charged purchasers nothing. I asked the purchasers to ring their surveyor and ask him what he thought  pointed out that in the five months since they first saw the house it had rained solidly and if we had a problem with damp it would smell damp and the wall paper would be pealling.

Summary

The first time I purchased it was so cheap and I knew I could afford to fix it

The second time I spent 4 hours crawling round the structure

Like most people who have studied anything I also get tired of what I describe as 'Golf Club Tax Advise"

'Best Endeavours' is a nice little legal phrase  which until you have studied case law suggest doing everything which is reasonable.  

[Hegs]

>Getting a builder or architect is always an option but can you be sure that they are not looking at you as a cash-cow?

We have experienced a few problems with an English RICS surveyor, as have other people according to rumour. Strangely enough, this RICS surveyor also writes for French websites and magazines about the benefits of surveys!

He was all too happy to direct you towards - and actually worked directly for - an English architect who is becoming fairly notorious. The architects in question have had several complaints against them upheld by the Ordre des Architectes, and ours is pending. The surveyor, who worked for the architect surveying and drawing up plans rather than directly doing a survey for us, missed some really obvious faults that were cheap to fix, and instead  in our opinion used fear, uncertainty and doubt to propose work that was, according to explicit RICS advice, unsuitable for a period property.

Luckily our local builders were on the ball and provided us with helpful advice that, in my opinion, stopped us from spending thousands unnecessarily and potentially harming the building in the process.

I have tried three times over the last year to get RICS to confirm the surveyor was actually qualified in the advice he was giving, as he must be. They don't reply, then when I chase up, they say they are having computer issues. So how do I know the surveyor is actually qualified to survey period French properties, and not just English buildings like the majority of UK surveyors?

It is all so well to say "you should complain to RICS", but if RICS don't listen, what's the point!

[Anglo-Frenchman]

Clearly there is perhaps an issue here with a particular practitionner and it serves to remind us that no system is fool-proof.  I have personally suffered at the hands of doctors, dentists, lawyers and a whole host of other professionals who frankly had no business peddling their wares but these experineces should not colour those professions as a whole.  I have also, by contrast had excellent service from others in the same fields. 

If you are dissatisfied with the service you have received from an RICS member there is a proper procedure set up to address these concerns.  If you would like to email me privately then I will pass on the relvelvent information on how to  go about making a complaint about an RICS member or alternatively you can log onto www.rics.org/AboutRICS/complaint.htm and follow the informattion there.

[Hegs]

Yes, I don't mean to disparage the entire profession. Some friends who successfully persued a claim against the same architect later had excellent service from another RICS registered surveyor - who didn't even charge for his time.

However, RICS seems to be toothless and the organization needs to get its act together from my experience. From the link you sent, the complaints procedure is unable to award compensation, which makes it fairly pointless - you have to go through the courts or CAB (hmmm, those exist in France don't they). I wonder if the jurisdiction over practitioners in France has ever been tested either. Has anyone working in France been struck off, or even disciplined?

To me, a personal recommendation of a good local builder, surveyor, or architect is worth much more than a theoretical chance to complain in the future!

[united]

I have read this thread with interest, we bought our house last year and yes we have a survey at a cost of £700 from an RICS surveyor.

Our decision was based on risk, we were spending what we thought was a lot of money to buy the house. Probably 90% plus houses for sale in France have no problems. So the 10% risk can be minimised in ascending of certainty by a) me looking, b) a builder looking, c) an architect or d) an RICS surveyor.

I was happy with both the verbal and written reports received. Was it worth £700, probably not as the house was fine, however, it would have been worth 2 or 3 times that if it had found a problem and stopped me parting with my very hard earned dosh for a liability.

I guess the decision should be based on how much risk you are happy to accept.