A rant ..

[Steph]

Hi there, sorry this is a bit of a rant, I’ve just accessed the forum for the first time in ages and I’ve read some postings that initiated a bit of a huff. It’s probably because I’ve managed to get home to France for a week, but unfortunately I’m home alone without my husband to drink wine with and put the world to rights, so I decided a couple of G&Ts should be the order of the day and to log onto the forum ..

 

My huff came after I had read a posting about the cost of builders, admittedly the content of the posting itself was fine as were the responses but it got me onto one of my regular rants … Why is it that people always seem to think that builders or artisans are always trying to rip them off?

 

My husband is a carpenter who has been in business for the last 25 years; he was one of many who came out of the secondary education system in the late seventies being encouraged to “become a trade”. For about 20 years of that time he got used to being treated as the “tradesman” and as if he has got **** on his shoes.  Now however, the worm has finally turned, there is a huge lack of skilled, professional artisans, “becoming a trade” has not been encouraged by the educational system and consequently there is a huge shortage within the construction industry, this in turn, like any other profession has resulted in higher charges, due to supply and demand. To quote professional builder magazine, the UK construction industry requires 500,000 new apprentices now to be able to stand still in 5 year’s time, if my neighbours are correct these figures no doubt apply to France as well.  If you employ an artisan and expect to receive a high standard of work then you should also expect to pay the going price.

 

We quite often do not query the cost of any of our service providers; car maintenance, emergency trades, locksmiths, insurers, solicitors, estate agents, surveyors, hairdressers, the list goes on but it is accepted that this is the price to pay and yet when it comes to one of the most important and expensive of items, the home, then everyone wants high class, professional work but are not prepared to pay the price because they think they are being fleeced and taken for a ride. If your artisan is qualified, registered and professional then £25 or 35€ is a fair price to pay, you are more than likely paying for someone who has been in the business for at least 20 years and can offer you a vast amount of knowledge and experience. If your potential artisan is not prepared or able to give you a considerable list of references then do not use them.

 

I agree that there are plenty of disreputable characters out there, no doubt due to the British system within the construction industry i.e. Not having to be registered or affiliated to any professional body but if you follow your common sense and take up references and check credentials and keep in touch with your builders then you should haven’t a problem, as long as you are prepared to accept that you get what you pay for.

 

There I’ve said what I wanted to say, hope I haven’t bored you all too much but I just had to get it off my chest .. Ah now, should I have another G&T?

 

[Russethouse]

>>

My huff came after I had read a posting about the cost of builders, admittedly the content of the posting itself was fine as were the responses but it got me onto one of my regular rants … Why is it that people always seem to think that builders or artisans are always trying to rip them off? <<<

I think this is based on fear and lack of knowledge - no one wants to pay over the odds and for some budgets are tight, like everything else people want to make sure they are getting value for money and not being taken for a ride

>>>We quite often do not query the cost of any of our service providers; car maintenance, emergency trades, locksmiths, insurers, solicitors, estate agents, surveyors, hairdressers, the list goes on but it is accepted that this is the price to pay and yet when it comes to one of the most important and expensive of items, the home, then everyone wants high class, professional work but are not prepared to pay the price <<<<

I'm afraid I do keep an eye on the price of the other services you mention (and don't start me on banks )and I am obviously not the only one, a friend of my daughter recently spent a night on a friends sofa to avoid paying £160 for a locksmith 'out of hours' and called in the day instead, thus saving £100

>>I agree that there are plenty of disreputable characters out there, no doubt due to the British system within the construction industry i.e. Not having to be registered or affiliated to any professional body but if you follow your common sense and take up references and check credentials and keep in touch with your builders then you should haven’t a problem, as long as you are prepared to accept that you get what you pay for.<<<

I think sensible people who would be perfectly capable of getting the service they need in the UK can become rather unnerved in France especially when their command of the language isn't good

>>There I’ve said what I wanted to say, hope I haven’t bored you all too much but I just had to get it off my chest .. Ah now, should I have another G&T?<<

I take mine with ice and lemon - thanks

[Teamedup]

With the amount of obscene taxes the french government makes on artisans I know that making a living here is hard for many. So I'm always surprised when I read that people have found artisans that will work for 20 euros an hour, I have no idea how they live on that with a business to run.

[Val_2]

We've just spent nearly two weeks trying to help a couple sort out their "bodge up". They were sent a "builder" by the property agent they bought from upon his recommendation. The work is attrocious and on checking him out I discovered he is not a registered builder, only registered to fit windows and some garden stuff and he has replaced a roof, installed an electric chauffe-eau and misunderstood the drainage regs. All this work has got to be done again,he can't see anything wrong with it and in fact, the chauffe-eau he charged for is less than £60 equivalent from BricoDepot and last week the bottom pressure outlet broke and water poured continuously from it - imagine if the householders had gone on holiday! This is the type of cowboy who gives the good brit builders trying to earn an honest if,difficult living here a bad name and proof that he does not carry any sort of insurance or he would use quality materials and know his trade. Like the householders said, they don't understand building and now feel very bitter as this bloke is living in comparative luxury which they can't see comes from his work if it is always to this standard. 

[Piprob]

Does it have something to do with the burgeoning DIY industry since the '60s? 'Everyone' now seems to believe its all very easy, that there's precious little knowledge, training. or skill involved. Perhaps so many property 'makeover' programmes have added to this illusion. However, I do notice the development in materials and methods. I secretly covet many of the new 'gizmos' I see in the Brics, and I'm sorely tempted to do things well beyond my depth and competence just to see if I can. Dark warnings from hergoodself of the doom that awaits, combined with my own moderate common sense have, however, kept me straight so far!

I know from my days in the construction industry that we often treated our tradesmen abominably. It was boom and bust - hardly surprising young people started to keep well clear of it.

[Alcazar]

Well, here's my two penn'orth, as regards the situation in England.

I'm afraid we have to look back to Tory years, when they didn't want to pay for training, there were fewer training positions available due to recession, and they badly needed to get people, especially young people off the dole.

They initiated a system in the UK which encourages young people to stay on at school, then stay on still further to university and colleges. This has led to a few dire consequences, and the chickens are now well and truly coming home to roost:

1. There are now so few artisans or tradesmen in Britain that in some parts it is well nigh impossible to get one, and IF one will come to you, expect to pay £80 an hour WHEN he can do the job.

2. The lack of tradesmen has a further knock-on effect on those wanting to train. To learn a trade PROPERLY needs an apprenticeship. No tradesmen, means no apprentices.............

3. Present governement is being less than truthful too. They say there are "X" thousand places on training schemes for, say, plumbers, BUT, those schemes depend on the trainee getting work as an apprentice after 2 years at college to finish his training, and we are back to point number 2 above I KNOW this to be true, as my own son is an apprentice welder, and many of his friends on his course will NOT be at the end of this year A local plumbing trainee last year took out a half page   advert in the local press to try and get taken on. He didn't get anything, so 2 years wasted

4. Builders, at least those with businesses, know that there is a crunch coming in the UK VERY soon. I drive HGV, and sometimes do deliveries to sites. Last year I spoke to one builder, telling him I thought that the UK would see a shortage of skilled men within the next few years, not seen since the end of WW1 !. His response? "B*gger a few years, kid, , it's here NOW! I can't get plasterers or 'tricians for love nor money!" In my own "trade" the UK is short 300,000 HGV drivers.............but try training at a cost of £1000 or more, and your first jobs will be for an agency on £6 an hour, as insurance stops HGV companies from taking you on permanently until you have 2 years' experience Who wants to earn £6 an hour at 23?

4. Now we come to those who went on to college/uni. They come out with, in many cases, not very useful degrees, but expect large starting salries to make up for the time spent at uni, and why not? Trouble is, no jobs for 'em. Many end up doing things they could have been doing 5 years previously, for poor wages. I know of at least 4 graduates, 2 labouring and two working for a pittance in a call centre! I also know of three more, still at uni, whose PARENTS admit that uni was NOT the right place for them, but there was NOTHING ELSE!

Sorry if this is a bit of a rant too, but it's a pet subject with me. My own son decided NOT to continue at 6th form college after 6 weeks, and had to take a year out. He COULD NOT get a job in this part of the UK for the entire year! Not even supermarket work, except briefly at Christmas! He couldn't have jobseeker's allowance, or dole. He couldn't go to the jobcentre, (not old enough), or sign with any agencies (same reason). He was reduced to oddjobs for people we know and living off us, at 16/17. And we, as a society, wonder why there are increasing numbers of youth of his age, hanging round on street corners, getting increasingly bitter

The situation is the same, or close in France. The pot is boiling, and someone has jammed the lid on. Watch out!

Alcazar

[Martinemj]

[quote]Well, here's my two penn'orth, as regards the situation in England. I'm afraid we have to look back to Tory years, when they didn't want to pay for training, there were fewer training positions avail...[/quote]

alcazar...

as a plasterer i wish i could charge 80.00 hr

i wouldnt need to buy a wreck in brittany i would buy a 6 bedroom mansion

[Russethouse]

martinemj, Just today I had a quote of £2900 from a 'brickie' to build a raised bed a total of about 25 - 30ft (this is in the UK) with a reduction of approx £600 if we clear the site first (shrubs etc)

Estimated time 1 week.

Its a long time since we had any thing done here, I am obviousley completley out of touch with prices!!

[Alcazar]

Martinmj:

Alls I'm going on is what 3 family members were quoted by a plumber a bricky and a plasterer, in St Helens, Manchester and London Kingston.

Alcazar

[pjm]

Just want to chip in with something an old French guy told me " for whoever is doing the work it is too cheap and for whoever is paying for the work it is too expensive"!!

Running our own business in France is more of a headache than in the UK, and with high social charges for each employee, every man needs to earn his money.  Just to "get by" each man needs to be earning 30-35 euros/hour for his employer (be that himself or a business).  Not that our employees get that in their hand, but it is what they cost us as a company per hour, and that is just to cover costs not making any profit!   

[Weedon]

The main problem that some people have when dealing with "hands-on" trades-people is that everyone knows what an average weekly wage is and breaking that down to an hourly rate end they resent paying more than that for any work done by a person who doesn't wear a suit. 

So called professional people IMHO are amongst the worst examples of that because the class system still exists.  That is a generalisation but is based on my own experiences.

Please don't get me started on leeches who deal in money markets.

Have now raised the drawbridge.

Weedon(53)

 

[Martinemj]

£80.00 per hr

i was also thinking the other day after my last post that if i was doing emergency repair work (also out of hrs) then this may not be too far off.

most tradesmen i know or work with are charging from £90.00 --£150.00 day and as others have said some people resent paying that.

[Val_2]

Our plasterer friend in the UK charges £350 per day and is never short of work, if you want it done bad enough money is no object.

[neutralzone<EM>Lets not <STRONG>bitch!<STRONG><EM>]

Problem as I see it, there are too many Brits with the idea that the French will work for peanuts and either fail to realise (or don't want to) that to run a business here requires oodles of money to pay the social charges and taxes required.

The days of the farmer down the lane doing your work are long gone!