Planning Permission

[Smiff]

We have had plans drawn up for restoration  of a house and conversion of a barn to dwelling (barn has CU)  The house restoration (externally) involves adding Velux windows and changing a door to window and one window to French doors. The bedrooms will be in the loft area but there is already a proper staircase up to this level. We are unclear whether this requires planning permission or simply a "Declaration de Travaux".  As the barn involves change of use, we assume full planning permission is required.

Could anyone shed any light on this for us ? (Are we being particularly dim !? !)

Many thanks 

[BJSLIV]

You will need a full Permis De Construire on two counts, change of use and change of external apperance.

I can't put it better than to quote a French definition of when a permis is required:

Pour les travaux portant sur des constructions existantes qui ont pour effet d'en changer la destination, d'en modifier l'aspect extérieur ou leur volume ou de créer des niveaux supplémentaires

Some people  recommend phasing of the applications to avoid the obligation to get the plans signed off by a French architect.

 

See also

http://riviera.angloinfo.com/information/1/buildplan.asp

[Iceni]

You will need a French registered architect if/when your habitable area exceeds 170m2. To keep costs down I recommend the DIY approach for as long as possible. Planning applications are free and I have always found the DDE staff to be very helpful and prepared to accept amateurish documentation.

Good luck

John

[I1]

In my ignorance (and as I hope to convert and attic):

I had always thought that planning permission was sought from the local mairie ? Do you need to apply to the DDE as well/instead (and who are the DDE - I assume the departmental building works controllers, but I'm not sure).

My attic already has a floor and windows, though no interior walls (room for 2 large or 3 smaller bedrooms and a bathroom). I will need to apply for permission to add a couple of velux windows. I had been told (though realised I needed to make additional checks) that if you were not making changes to the exterior, then you need no permissions. However, once completed you must tell the mairie what you have done as it affects your habitable area and thus property tax.

Also, when making the changes, I have been told (though am not convinced about this) that there are no real building regulations you need to comply with. The electrical work will need inspecting, etc. but I was told that was pretty well it. I had my doubts about this and I guess I'm now starting to check before starting teh actual work.

Any comments much appreciated.

[BJSLIV]

DDE= Direction Departementale De L'Equipement= County Planning & Works Department

You apply to the Maire (& Council) who consider the application and give an opinion.

They pass it do the DDE who check that it conforms with the planning laws and regulations.

It then comes back to the Maire who give approval.

So though the plans are approved at the Mairie they cannnot sign off anything that doesn't conform, and equally (in theory) they must approve anything that does conform.

So its up to you to decide who really approves the plans

Once the plans are agreed there are no internal building reg inspections and if the house already has an electricity  supply an internal extension of the system will not need to be inspected.

[I1]

Seems very different to the UK.

Ignoring my Velux windows, do people think that my attic conversion (attic already has a wooden floor and permanent stairs) requires any permissions atall or can I just "do it".  I can treat the Velux windows as a separate issue - apply for it, fit them wait a week then decide to convert the attic if I would not need any permissions for the internal works.

Without the need for any permissions to convert the internal open area to bedrooms, life would be very easy.  It is such a contrast to the UK where anything (particularly on a 3rd floor) would need all sorts of pre approvals, building regs inspections during works and a final sign-off certificate.

 

Locals (dry-wall builder and also a roofer) have told me the floor and roof are strong enough (its an old watermill so everything was built to take quite a lot of weight).

I would also appreciate opinions on what I'm planning to build as I believe that French and British "tastes" are different - though I'll start a new thread.

[zeb]

We applied for (and got) full planning permission for change of use of attached barn (into a sittingroom) and grenier (into bedrooms and shower rooms) as new windows, doorways and veluxs were being installed. We took our amateurish plans (drawn  to scale on graph paper with photos) to the local DDE for checking and then took them into our Mairie for sending on to the DDE!

Friends ( actually lots of people we know) who are converting greniers into living space and installed veluxs, have not bothered to apply for planning permission. This includes a French couple. Maybe it's not really necessary. Would we do it in Britain? My last house in the UK when we bought it had a kitchen upstairs (it had probably been a shared house), we were told to apply for permission (building regs) to cut off water to upstairs kitchen sink before removing it - did we hell!!

best wishes.....helen

[I1]

I don't know how much areas differ.  My house actually sits across the border between two comunes.  For work on one side I go to one mairie, the other side the other marie.  Both are small rural communities where everybody knows exactly what everybody is doing (at least if you speak French they probably do).  Being the only English person in one of the communies and the other has only one other Brit (who has been there for years), I tend to get noticed.  People regularly comment (positively) on the work I have done to the house.  If I break any rules it is bound to be noticed (being noticed is one thing but I have no idea how likely they are to actually do anything about it)

[Smiff]

Thank you for all the comments so far. We have an appointment with the maire next week and will, hopefully, be able to clarify the position.  We are assuming that we will need planning permission for both our house and barn. 

Final question though !  We have just obtained CU for barn conversion.  How long are we likely to have to wait (in 24) for the planning permission to come through and can we start any of the renovation work on the house before it does ? 

[I1]

Good luck with your meeting.

One thing I have read (which others may be able to confirm/deny) is that once you have your permission (the bit of paper), you must display it (or a copy !) on the property (not sure where but I'm sure there are regulations again) for others to see and it must stay there until the works are complete.  I understand that you must start to display it as soon as you get permission (even if you are not going to start work for a time).

[Monika]

[quote]Thank you for all the comments so far. We have an appointment with the maire next week and will, hopefully, be able to clarify the position. We are assuming that we will need planning permission for ...[/quote]

I would also be interested on how long it normally takes for the planning permission to come through, and does one have to display a notice or does the Mairie advise the neighbours of the intended building work. ?

[Iceni]

In our commune modificatifs takes around 6 weeks (the original P de C took 8). The letter acknowledging receipt of request also says (I think) that if you hear nothing within 8 weeks p.p. is deemed to have been granted. A copy of the document granting permission is displayed outside the Mairie for a couple of months - not quite sure why though ?

John

 

[Val_2]

Neighbours are not notified in France. All decisions made by the local council/Maire are published in the mairie for the public to read. PdeConstruire usually takes about 2 months if it is straightforward and as someone who is on a planning commission, we get to see applications first and decide whether we will allow them or not democratically. The applicant can then decide whether to ammend his plans or take it to an appeal at the DDE who have an important say in permissions here. At the end of the day if someone goes ahead without permission, they can be made to put the building back into it's former state and be fined.

[Monika]

Thank you Iceni and Val, sorry just one more thing (I am sure it is somewhere in the Archive, but I just can't access that), does one actually get a piece of paper saying that the Planning permission is granted or is it just verbally, and how long is it valid?