Rewiring

[Simon Kennedy]

HI,

Just started looking at the electrics in my flat. eeek

Looks like about 1950.

Some questions.

There are two wires coming into the fusebox from the cutoff switch. This indicates that it is a monophase installation. Am I right?

There is no earth to be seen anywhere. Pretty common in older installations I believe.

There appears to be no fuse protection on any of the neutral wires in the fuse box. Only on the live.

This, combined with the lack of an earth means it is major renovation time right? Rewire the place. New consumer unit, fit an earth and new wiring.

It is a small flat so I reckon I will take on the wiring myself. All the wiring is in solid conduits as far as I can tell. So the task is simple yeah? Change all the cables for new (ie live, neutral and earth), fitting new sockets as I go and maybe laying another line for a dishwasher.

The electric system is radial, so it is all pretty simple no? Mainly a lot of feeding cable through conduits.

Tell me if I am missing something please.

[Alcazar]

Can't say you're missing anything, although if there is no earth, a major headache could be trying to fit earth wires down the conduits designed only for neutral and live.

Yes, it's monophase.

I'd suggest buying and reading "L'Electricite pas a pas", and "Maitriser L'Electricite", both available in softback from Leclerc for a few Euros, and although in French, the easy to understand diagrams will explain most stuff.

You'll need a couple of RCD's, a type A for most stuff, and a type AC for dishwasher, washing machine, etc.

The books show circuit breaker values to use, along with cable sizes, and other things like number of sockets, lights etc per circuit.

Cooker, dishwasher and washer have their own dedicated MCB's.

The circuit in my house had no earth and the neutral had barettes fitted, no fuses, so I reckon that's pretty common.

Lastly, don't use UK fittings, cable or distribution boards as they aren't legal or suitable., although if you are using seperate cables for live, neutral and earth, a look at Screwfix might be useful, as they now have blue for neutral, green/yellow for earth, and I THINK, black for live, although in our property, I've started with red for live, as it's what the local Briconauts had on offer.

Sorry if any of this is teaching you to suck eggs.

Alcazar

Edited to say: forgot to say, don't forget to earth bond hot and cold water pipes and any gas pipes, plus any METAL conduits..

[Gyn_Paul]

Find a circuit, you can live without, dis it, and do a test pull of the new conductors through the old metal conduit using one of the old ones. It's such a pain persuading them round the corners, that I suspect you'll ultimately prefer to rip the lot out and replace it with new (safer) rigid plastic conduit. What it will ultimately come down to is how many of the corners/ junctions you can get at, and how many ******* bends there are (where the original cables were pulled through BEFORE the conduit was bent, corregating the bitumen lining and gripping the cables).

The other point is that UK consumer units switch (or fuse) the live feed and have a common rail for the neutrals. French systems use double-pole MCBs thus properly isolating each individual circuit. Some 40-odd years ago someone had the sense to realise that fusing the neutral and the live separately was a BAD idea: if the neutral fuse blew, the entire circuit would then be at mains potential right through to the broken fuse.

p

[VJ]

Sorry to Hijack a little of this thread

Would someone just clarify exactly how many socket outlets can be run off a 16 amp MCB circuit

According to my French wiring booklet it is 8

But a friendly electrician says 5

UK standard says 3

All wired in 2.5 cab,e and in accordance with inernational colours (which now covers UK)

Also is a twin outlet for regs counted as 1 or 2

Many thanks in advance

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Sorry to Hijack a little of this thread Would someone just clarify exactly how many socket outlets can be run off a 16 amp MCB circuitAccording to my French wiring booklet it is 8But a friendly elec...[/quote]

Here goes!

A "socket circuit" should use a 20A MCB or a 16A fuse (not that fuses are recommended). You are allowed 8 sockets per circuit, but I would recommend a maximum of 6. Doubles count as singles (eh?), so you could have 16 outlets - that I would definately not recommend! Colours are (mandatory) Neutral - Blue, Earth - Green/yellow. Live can be any other colour, but most 2.5mm2 cable is red (or black).

UK standard is not relevant, as it refers to spurs on a ring main - which can't be used here, although some recommend the earthing of both ends of the circuit - sensible, but not necessary if you can wire a socket correctly!

HTH!

 

[Dave&Olive]

sorry to but in on this one ....but 8 when using 2.5 mm and 5 when using 1.5mm....

        question from me to Nick ... if I have only a 15 amp supply should I still fit 20amp breakers ??

                            dave

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]sorry to but in on this one ....but 8 when using 2.5 mm and 5 when using 1.5mm.... question from me to Nick ... if I have only a 15 amp supply should I still fit 20amp breakers ?? ...[/quote]

Yes. If you added up all the breakers' ratings, you would get a silly figure, way above the rating of your board.

The breakers are faster acting than the main EDF breaker and are designed so. Short out a socket and the 20A breaker will go before the main one.

 

[Simon]

Just out of interest, why are UK MCBs and RCDs unsuitable, is it down to trip settings: if so why do the French and UK use different standards?

Regards

Simon

[Alcazar]

In France, all RCD's and all MCB's are double pole, ie: they isolate both live, AND neutral when they operate.

In the UK, all MCB's that I have seen, are single pole, isolating only the live, or current carrying wire, whereas the neutrals are all brought back to a common neutral busbar in the distribution box. It is possible to buy double pole breakers, but at a MASSIVE premium over France, as they are to order only.

AFAIK, this is the only difference, although the two types of RCD, TypeA and TypeAC, are commonly available in France, while in the UK, only typeAC are common. (I THINK I have that right way round, I'd have to check my books which are back in France. 

Alcazar

[VJ]

QUOTED UK standard is not relevant, as it refers to spurs on a ring main - which can't be used here, although some recommend the earthing of both ends of the circuit - sensible, but not necessary if you can wire a socket correctly!

Nick I was referring to RADIAL circuits which limit them to 3

I agree with point on earthing and it is better working practice to have earthing from both ends but yes not necessary.Safety is the issue here

Thankyou for the number of socket outlets being 8 but I will go with the Electrician recomendation of 5

To the person who wants to know about MCB'S

YES you can buy them in england I bought all mine in UK

Yes the French use double pole but be careful here

Single pole shuts off the line onle

Double pole incorporating switched neutral will isolate both pole and is the one required

Double pole with bimetal on neutral operate both pole and takes up two ways on the DIN rail

so make ceratin you spell it out to the wholesaler

RCB Residual curent breaker need to be sized on the ma rating you require

I have not come across type A and Ac so perhaps someone would enlighten me on that

Surely the RCB is only rated on sesitivity? or are we talking RCBO which combines the two ??

[Gyn_Paul]

But MCB's are now so cheap here in France that I would have to question why you would want to bring them from the UK (where they are probably on special order, imported, and made here by Legrand anyway!).

p

[VJ]

yes for you maybe but when I spend £100,000-00 per year I think my discount is better than yours

VJ

[Alcazar]

The two types of RCD are Type A and Type AC: I THINK the type AC is used for general circuits, eg lighting, sockets etc, whereas the Type A is for circuits where stray DC may be present, those having heavy duty motors on them, like washer, etc.

That was my understanding, although I may have quoted it wrong way round. I know that which is which is written on my distribution board in France, and they are wired strictly as per books. My plumber noted it and approved.

Yes, I'm aware that double pole mcb's are available in the UK, but the ones I priced were WAY more expensive even than buying from Briconauts/Mr Bricolage!

Alcazar

[Simon]

I think I can answer that, it is because we holiday makers have a limited amount of time. I tend to arrive chez moi late Friday, Saturday and Sunday everything is shut. Monday is the first day you can get at what you need. Things brought from the UK are usually dearer, but at least you can get started 2 days earlier.

Regards

Simon

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]I think I can answer that, it is because we holiday makers have a limited amount of time. I tend to arrive chez moi late Friday, Saturday and Sunday everything is shut. Monday is the first day you c...[/quote]

Uhmmm.....

I know that this is boring, but the use of any (or most) UK electrical products in France is illegal because the chances are they are not "NF" marked. In the same way that the reverse applies because Fr electrical equipment isn't BS marked....

Not really a problem until you need a CONSUEL inspection or until the place catches fire (for whatever reason!).

I have seen some really laughable jobs done by UK DIYers using UK bits (electrical & plumbing) & it always costs more to put it right than it would cost to do it in the first place. VJ - present company excepted, of course!

 

[VJ]

Well thanks Nick and the same applies to so called Tradesmen !!!!!! see lots of bodges by so called professionals

Are you saying that all ce stamped electrical controls unless NF stamped do not comply with french Regs?

I find that hard to beleive

Just checked with Electrical manager here and he advises that all the MCBS RCBO contactors switches ect ect are to a European standard and has shown me the Klockner catalogue to show the standards

Also check out the European Le Grange catalogue as it only shows one set of mcb's for ALL Europe and all with the same reference numbers !!!!!Funny that

[Ty Korrigan]

Hello, in my little book 'Pas-pas' d'electricite it clearly states 'do not earth you metal pipes'

Sooo, why does the author of the earlier statement in this thread say you must do so and if he is wrong, will he retract the statement if incorrect...?

This must not become 'Angloinfo', a forum of misinformation and people searching curry...

[Ty Korrigan]

Alcazar! thats the fellow! Please give me a correct response as I wire my place this week!

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Well thanks Nick and the same applies to so called Tradesmen !!!!!! see lots of bodges by so called professionals Are you saying that all ce stamped electrical controls unless NF stamped do not compl...[/quote]

This subject really is boring, but; There are no EU-wide regulations for electrical equipment (or plumbing etc), or standards, apart from CE-marking, which only applies to electrical safety in low-voltage equipment and immunity/emissions. As I understand it, all electrical components must be appropriately marked to comply with local regs - DIN in Germany, BS in the UK, NF in France, etc. Of course, it is possible that items can be approved in a host of Countries, but they will still be marked accordingly.

 

[Alcazar]

Earthing metal pipes: sorry I don't have the relevant book with me at the mo, they are both in france, BUT: my statement was taken from experience in the UK where EVERY metal fitting is earthed, pipework, radiators, taps, sinks, metal wall boxes, metal conduit etc etc. Even a sink I bought in the UK, made of resinite, or some such, had an earth bonding strip built in.

I'm all for following all the local regs, but I'm also all for belt and braces where electricity is concerned. 

I would not be happy doing it any other way, in fact I'd want a VERY good reason not to.

Anyone "supply" one?

Alcazar 

[VJ]

May be boring Nick but the indication you gave was that

items bought in the UK non NF marked could not be used in France and possible could be dangerous

OK for us to understand that but a forum is also to brief the people that may be relying on the information to assist them.

There are lots of people like a privious poster who are tied for time and need to buy at his leisure in the UK

We are involved in large process systems throughout the Europe and my projects guys are conversant with country standards and at present are about to install another large system in France

They are advising me that EU regs encompass Din BS NF etc and two for electrical controls are EN. and IEC. and certainly if you buy the international brands the products will cover all the regs for all European Countrys.If in doubt ask the Electrical wholsaler to confirm with the supplier

Having glanced this morning over the Customers URES User requirement Electrical specification

It specifies to European standard

I tust this helps other Forum members who may be confused on this subject

[andyh4]

[quote]Earthing metal pipes: sorry I don't have the relevant book with me at the mo, they are both in france, BUT: my statement was taken from experience in the UK where EVERY metal fitting is earthed, pipew...[/quote]

One possible very good reason not to earth to pipes (and I am no electrician so feel free to shoot me down in flames );

 

Many French water systems are based on non-conducting plastic pipe that comes much further into the house than equivalent feed in the UK which stops at or near the stop cock or meter.  So there is a chance that the visible metal pipes in a French house are not well earthered and in the event of a problem all you do is make the taps live!

[Alcazar]

QUOTE: andyh4:  <<Many French water systems are based on non-conducting plastic pipe that comes much further into the house than equivalent feed in the UK which stops at or near the stop cock or meter.  So there is a chance that the visible metal pipes in a French house are not well earthered and in the event of a problem all you do is make the taps live!>>

Correct me if I've got this wrong, but I was taught that to earth something was to put it at the same potential as the ground, and to give any current that might enter it, a route back to ground WITHOUT giving any person touching it a shock.

Given that the average person, even wet through, has a resistance somewhere in the thousands of Ohms, and that a proper earth will be less than 30 Ohms, any stray current will go down the route of least resistance, and straight to ground.

If the householder has fitted an RCD, (and here, I sincerely hope no-one is rewiring WITHOUT them!!), this will have the effect of switching off the current in around 18mS, as soon as more than 30mA is detected "escaping" to earth.

Believe me, that's just about enough to make you jump, and/or your hair stand on end, before it trips. I know, I've been there.

Notwithstanding the entry of water into the house via plastic pipes, (which is, incidentally, the same as in the UK, in all but the very oldest houses), wouldn't it be better to have pipework connected to ground? Then, should a live wire inadvertently make contact with a pipe, the RCD/mcb will imediately trip, and even should a person be ALSO in contact with the pipe at the same time, Ohm's Law would show that the proportion of current flowing through that person to ground, would probably not even be noticed, (around 9 MILLIONTHS of an amp for a wet through person with a resistance of around 10k Ohms which is VERY low, and a household earth of 30 Ohms which is very high).

Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but I STILL believe a decent earth to metal bits is vital.

Alcazar

[Ty Korrigan]

Hello again... the little red book 'Pas a Pas d'electricite' shows cartoon of a man being electrocuted because his metal pipes are live... and clearly states that it is not permited to earth via these.

The only very good reason that I can give you for for only following the French way of doing things is that not doing so can invalidate insurances and when you come to sell the place you may be forced to rip it all out as its an illegal installation that does not conform to the french norm.

U.K wiring may be in your opinion better but its just not allowed here. I fully intend to sell my place in the future and so toeing the line and conforming are very important to me.

Wiring up this coming weekend! Let there be light!

 

[Simon Kennedy]

Thanks for the useful inof so far.

Glad my thread sparked some controversy. (Hey gittit?)

I have found all the wires are sheathed in metal conduits. Very sturdy, but I get the impression that this is now against regs. So I have to dig it all up yeah?

I tried a little bit. It is three inches deep in very old, very solid concrete. To do it all seems a big big job. Is there a way of avoiding spending the next week with a big drill and massette bashing away?

Simon