Fosse septic problems

[TNT]

Hi

We are about to proceed with the purchase of a house in the Gironde. There are a few things we need to sort out first. The house has been empty for a year or so. We have been trying to establish if the house has a fosse septic or not, it is not on mains drainage. The English agent has asked the previous owners and they said it has an assainisement individual, can someone explain what this is, it doesn’t appear to be a fosse septic. We spent nearly an hour trying to find an inspection chamber without luck, so we are a bit worried about what is there. The agent says it is all working fine, but if the fosse is inspected (something they say might never happen) we will have to install a new one if it does not comply, but this could just be adding a gravel bed. If we proceed with the house, we intend to add a covered terrace, which I assume will require planning permissions. I have read elsewhere that if you submit a planning application this will prompt an inspection of the fosse, has anyone had this experience?
Is a faulty fosse a reason to drop the offer price? The house has 6 loos (fitted shortly before the previous owners left, would this need permission?) but these appear to have not been used much if at all

Thanks

[duckalaronze]

When we recently signed the Acte for a house (my MIL's), it stated on the Certicate d'Urbanisme that the fosse septique had to be replaced 'en vigeur' to comply with EU regs.

Talking to the man from SPANC, he said that all house sales (I think from Jan 2007) will insist on FS changes - including installation of filter bed. He then asked if we were planning to install more than 2 loo's as it would be considerd that more loo's would require bigger fosses!!

It's a rural property (a hamlet of 4houses) and one of the other houses (recently sold) has to comply by installing a 4000m3 fosse (as it has 3 loo's!).

Although the existing works ok, it seems that bureaucracy is adamant that all Creuse will cmply by 2010!

Good luck

Alan

[Suninfrance]

Something similar happened to friends out here.  They brought their house and were told it had a fosse.  After a couple of months of liviing in it and with summer in just about full swing, they noticed a nasty pong and traced to a ditch at the bottom of their land which was full of, well, you know.  They ended up having to have a fosse installed.  Assainaisment Individual sounds a bit vague so I reckon you should get the agent to meet you "on site" and give the land thorough going over.  Ours was barely visible when we brought, so it may be the case with yours.  Double check it though.

[TNT]

Thanks Alan,

Do you know if there is an English site for SPANC were I can research this ? I have only been able to find a French site

 

Thanks

[TNT]

If you renovate a house and add an extra 5 los, do you need and planning/permisions/comply to building regs regarding the drainage/fosse?.  It would seem that if the size of the fosse is determined by the nunber of loos you would need some sort of permission ?

[Anyone for Cricket?]

I think the situation varies by region, we have been told that as about 90% of all fosses countrywide do not comply with the new regs even those put in only two years ago the government is going to have to help people to become compliant or accept that some will continue to be non-compliant if the person does not have the money. 

There is an example of such a scheme here where a small hamlet is getting help as none of them are compliant and who has thousands to spend on such an undertaking, certainly not your average french owner. 

It would seem it's just the Brits who are steaming ahead with updating , interesting to note also it seems to be only a specialist industry amongst the Brits, I've yet to see an advert by a french company that justs installs new fosses, these seem all to be english in our area and a growing number at that.

Your fosse may well be fine for now in which case it may be prudent to find out what the situation is close by, have any of your neighbours been inspected and if so what are they going to do about becoming compliant.

The local immobiliers have said the government are targeting houses that have clearly no fosse at all, i.e. all goes in a ditch as per the previous posters experience, after that they will go after the others but it is very much dependent on local legislation as I understand it.

 

[Clair]

[quote user="TNT"]Hi

We are about to proceed with the purchase of a house in the Gironde. There are a few things we need to sort out first. The house has been empty for a year or so. We have been trying to establish if the house has a fosse septic or not, it is not on mains drainage. The English agent has asked the previous owners and they said it has an assainisement individual, can someone explain what this is, it doesn’t appear to be a fosse septic. We spent nearly an hour trying to find an inspection chamber without luck, so we are a bit worried about what is there. The agent says it is all working fine, but if the fosse is inspected (something they say might never happen) we will have to install a new one if it does not comply, but this could just be adding a gravel bed. If we proceed with the house, we intend to add a covered terrace, which I assume will require planning permissions. I have read elsewhere that if you submit a planning application this will prompt an inspection of the fosse, has anyone had this experience?

Is a faulty fosse a reason to drop the offer price? The house has 6 loos (fitted shortly before the previous owners left, would this need permission?) but these appear to have not been used much if at all.

Thanks [/quote]

Assainissement individuel means that yours is a stand-alone system. It a generic term for anything not connected to mains sewerage disposal. It could be a septic tank, a well or a pipe leading to the ditch!

The inspection chamber could easily be covered with grass or gravel.

You could be asked to produce some sort of certificate of conformity to the new regulations, if not now, most possibly when you apply for work to be done on the property. It's the way the regulations are applied now, it's easier for them than going round all the properties one by one.

There s' more to it than simply adding a bed of gravel. The soil absorption had to be tested, the size of the tank and gravel bed calculated according to the number of bedrooms (pièces principales) not bathrooms or loos. The work should be inspected during and after and a certificate should be isssued, which you then provide copies of when requested with permis or déclarations de travaux.

If the previous owner has added extra loos and not declared them, there is a fair chance your taxe foncière will increase when/if the loos are declared afterwards, as such basics are considered "comfort improvements" and taxed. Ask to see the relevant déclaration de travaux. If they cannot produce it or any official paperwork related to the additional loos, the work was probably done on the sly... Lots of people do it and get away with it. It does catch up with you when you're asked to fill in a form A1 by the taxe foncière people and as you have no way of knowing what has or hasn't been declared, you find yourself being totally honest (as you would) and then the new and improved bill comes in!!!

The "scale of comfort" goes back to the 70's when extra bathrooms and loos when considered luxuries!!! There's talk of updating the reference data to bring it up to date with the new millenium, but don't hold your breath![:)]

[Deimos]

One of my Maries (I have two) is really on the ball about this (really, I'm not being cynical). A couple of years ago they have a commune meeting to explain all this to everybody, called people in from the water board to go through the regs, everything. They explained about inspections, obligations, etc.

I sort of expected to have somebody round fairly promptly - but I've not heard anything. The guy who emptied the fosse last time (a farmer) said to ignore it until told otherwise as it is unlikely anything will be happening for ages by which time the regs will be different anyway.

I've also heard of some amazing "fosse" arrangements being signed off as OK.

I agree about it being the Brits who get all worked-up about the fosse thing.

Ian

[Will]

TNT, your original advice received was pretty good and so are most of the responses you have had. As clair says, the 'individual drainage' is a catch-all and pretty meaningless.

You are right that a planning application can trigger an inspection. Though this does vary between areas. In several places, a house sale is another thing that can do this. Our area has had this for several years now, it was one of the first, and it is slowly filtering in elsewhere (ouch - bad pun) Where this applies, sellers have to provide proper details of the drainage arrangements - which can range from a fully-compliant connection to the mains or new-style septic tank, through an older septic tank system (that works well but may not be to current standards) or a very old system, to nothing at all. It doesn't mean, as has been said in some other forums, that you cannot sell a house unless it has drains meeting current rules, it just means that the seller has to declare what there is, and the new owner is supposed to sort it out. But this rule isn't applied everywhere - it sounds as if you are in one of these places where it has not come in yet. Where it is required as part of the seller's package of certificates then non-compliant drains could be a negotiation point on the price, but I would think that's a bit of a long shot in your case.

You are also correctly advised that you may not be forced to do anything for ages, if ever. Inspecting and rectifying every French house's drains is a monster undertaking and will probably never be achieved. Many people know that they have a septic tank, but would not have a clue how old it is, where it drains to, or even where the tank itself is. Most likely this will be regarded in the same way as every other piece of Brussels legislation is in France - as something to be wheeled out if it suits you, but ignored the rest of the time.

The six loos are a grey area, if you pardon another bad pun. Technically as long as you don't alter the outside of the house, or the internal floor area, you can probably get away with installing as many loos as you like without planning consents, but as clair says, they do have an impact on the local taxation should you get inspected for that, and could also make a previously compliant fosse septique inadequate.

Unless whatever drainage system is there now clearly does not work or cannot cope, then I don't think you need worry unduly, for the time being at least. I agree that it seems to be an 'immigrant' thing.

[cooperlola]

Our own fosse-emptying farmer gave us the same advice, Deimos, and it seemed sound to me.  Wait until they come knocking.  Unless you have a really unfortunate one and cannot stand the pong, hang fire a bit.  However, our architect did comment that when our current building works are finally signed off, an inspection may be carried out then, as we are adding another loo.  We will quietly sit and watch this space.  There certainly is not a long queue of French artisans waiting to install new ones.  If they're as pushed as our builders, I can't see everybody's fosses being up to standard for about 20 years or so unless they bring in a whole new workforce, and where will that come from?

The system here is so much better than the one we had in the UK - the standard cess pit - that really was a nightmare.[+o(]

[mint]

clair is spot on with her advice.  you also need to establish that you CAN (that is, are able to) put a new fosse (if you need one) on your land.

the regulations are quite strict about distances from buildings, boundaries and trees and the filter beds themselves take up a large-size area.  i know because we have just had ours put in.  in fact, we are about to make a trip to check on whether the chamber covers are properly fitting.

it is not my experience (at least not in our area) that there is no one about doing fosses.  i asked for recommendations from the syndicat des eaux and was given the names of 2 local french firms straight off.  there was very little difference in price between the two and, in the end, we opted for the bigger firm, in case the one-man band got the flu or something over the winter and cannot do the work!

where drainage is concerned, it is obviously most important to know what you are doing.  after all, if you buy a property you cannot drain you would have a proper white elephant on your hands.  besides, apart from complying with the regulations or not, i would assume that you would want a functioning fosse that works efficiently.  it's not after all a question of mere aesthetics (like nasty wallpaper that you can change), it's a question of your health!

[Pierre ZFP]

I just realised - 6 loos???? What is it a Chateau or a hotel?

You'd have to have a large family to use all those at once!![:-))]

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

cooperlola wrote

<>

We get most of our plumbers from Po land nowadays.

[StephenM]

I think the previous owners intended to do alot of B&B or just rent it out as a 7 bed /6 bathroom gite but it never got to that stage.  The cooker in the kitchen has never been used so I doubt if the loos have seen any action.  The agent says we would know if there was a problem with the drains, but because of the lack of use it probably hasn't happened yet, we do not want to be the ones to find the problem. It is bound to happen the week the familly arrive for a visit!!(there actually 7 loos at presant but we plan to take one out !)

It seems the sensible route would be to insist on a C o C as we plan to apply to make some external changes, if we then needed to payout 6 - 7000€ for a new fosse, we couldn't afford to make the planed external changes.

[Dave&Olive]

hi

 ok just a thought  €6000 for a 7 bed house fosse septic system  !!!!!! you might get a 3 bed house done for that !!!! 

             dave

[mint]

dave

you are right.  we paid over 7000 euros but that included a pump and metres of piping as we had to fit the filter beds to the rear of the property some distance away as we had insufficient room in the front