French Electrics

[Bridan]

Can anybody help me???

I am doing some renovations of my house in France & need some more electric sockets

Is the French system similar to ours in England or is it  more complicated.

Thanks for your help. Brian. 

[Quillan]

If you mean are power sockets on a ring main in Franc the answer is no.

Many DIY shops in France will have a book (or books) on this subject usually with loads of pictures which helps if your French is not so good.

There is a limit of how many sockets you can put in series, I believe it's seven. The reason for this is because there are no fuses in plugs here so the protection is on the distribution board hence there always seems to be loads of fuses/breakers. Don't foget washing machines, driers and dish washers must be on their own socket that goes directly back to their own breaker. There is I believe no PME earth in France like in the UK so make sure you have a good ground spike that matches the amount of power you are wanting to add. These books show all the figures and calculations so it's easy to work it out.

[Alcazar]

Not that it really matters, since all French breakers are double pole, breaking the phase, and neutral feeds, but there is a sort of unwritten rule that says that the live, or phase cable is connected to the right hand side of the socket, as you would see the socket on the wall, ie: from the front.

Oh, and FWIW, I'd spend a few Euros extra to get named sockets, Legrand seem to be top notch stuff.

Alcazar

[Brilec]

[quote user="Alcazar"]

Not that it really matters, since all French breakers are double pole, breaking the phase, and neutral feeds, but there is a sort of unwritten rule that says that the live, or phase cable is connected to the right hand side of the socket, as you would see the socket on the wall, ie: from the front.[/quote]

With the earth pin at the top?

All the sockets in my house were the other way round, as previously installed. Moral of the story is, never assume anything with existing wiring.

[Jc]

But if you buy a double socket,chances are that one will be connected the other way round,unlike UK sockets.

[fulcrum]

Two points I'd like to make .

1. Don't assume all French breakers are double pole. Look for a small symbol on the breaker itself that will indicate whether it's single or double.

2. Number of sockets allowed on a particular spur depends on thickness of wire used. 1.5 or 2.5 mm. 1.5mm allows 5 sockets and 2.5 allows eight sockets. Double sockets are counted as two on a 2.5mm spur but I'm not sure about 1.5mm. I always use 2.5mm as there isn't much of a saving and it allows for expansion.

As one of the earlier posters suggests.  It is worth investing in a few books if your going to do things yourself.

[Bridan]

Thanks for your help,much appreciated.I will invest in a couple of books on the subject.

  Brian.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Jc"]But if you buy a double socket,chances are that one will be connected the other way round,unlike UK sockets.[/quote]

Thats a good point actually. I know a block who spent ages trying to find a problem with his wiring. He had installed a double socket about half way along a spur and everything after it would not work. The reason was that unlike UK double sockets that are 'hard wired' French ones are not (well all the ones I have seen anyway) and you have to put jumpers in from one socket to another hence the above joke.

When I asked which way round the live went I was told that different electricians have different systems and NEVER assume it's on one side or another although if it's anew house you would like to think the sockets are all wired the same. I did wonder if you can get one of those testers like we had in the UK to see which way round things were, there the ones you just plug in to the socket and have a couple of LED's on them.

[Alcazar]

[quote user="fulcrum"]Two points I'd like to make .

1. Don't assume all French breakers are double pole. Look for a small symbol on the breaker itself that will indicate whether it's single or double.[/quote]

Yes, sorry, I ought to have said. Mine are all double pole, since this seems to be the norm now, and I've never seen single pole ones for sale in France. But, as stated, that's NOT to say that single poles ones were never available, or were brought from the UK.

[quote user="fulcrum"]
As one of the earlier posters suggests.  It is worth investing in a few books if your going to do things yourself.

[/quote]

Two I'd recommend are:

Maitriser L'Electricite, and

L'Electricite pas a pas,

Both in paperback, both available for about €5 from Leclercs, both in French, but with many easily followed diagrams, pictures etc.

Both contain good tables with number of lights, sockets etc per spur, cable diameters required, conduit sizes required etc etc. I use both books at times.

Alcazar

[fulcrum]

[quote user="fulcrum"]Two points I'd like to make .

2. Number of sockets allowed on a particular spur depends on thickness of wire used. 1.5 or 2.5 mm. 1.5mm allows 5 sockets and 2.5 allows eight sockets. Double sockets are counted as two on a 2.5mm spur but I'm not sure about 1.5mm. I always use 2.5mm as there isn't much of a saving and it allows for expansion.

[/quote]

I'd like to correct a mistake in my earlier post today.I wrote "two" instead of "one" in Point 2. Second sentence should read "Double sockets are counted as one on a 2.5mm spur but I'm not sure about 1.5mm."

[fulcrum]

[quote user="fulcrum"]Two points I'd like to make .

2. Number of sockets allowed on a particular spur depends on thickness of wire used. 1.5 or 2.5 mm. 1.5mm allows 5 sockets and 2.5 allows eight sockets. Double sockets are counted as two on a 2.5mm spur but I'm not sure about 1.5mm. I always use 2.5mm as there isn't much of a saving and it allows for expansion.

[/quote]

I'd like to correct a mistake in my earlier post today.I wrote "two" instead of "one" in Point 2. Second sentence should read "Double sockets are counted as one on a 2.5mm spur but I'm not sure about 1.5mm."

[Jonzjob]

Hi Alcazar, I got a problem? Are my fuses single or double pole? Sorry mate, just being a silly sod!!!

Our house has a fuse box, so I would like to think that all the sockets and switches are on the line side of the fuse, but I have just replaced all the switches and most of the sockets for posh new types. Some were switched or plugged line, but some were not.

I have a U.K. type socket checker that gives you the line/nuetral set up and if an earth is present (it doesn't give the earth quality). We got it when we started to come over to France on holliday wth our caravan. In our local OBI 'shed' they do French/English convertors, so if you have one of these tester plugs you can plug it into the converter and check all of your sockets. As I pointed out in an earlier thread, I bought a French flush double socket. One that fits into a single round hole in the wall (sorry to anyone that hasn't seen the French 60mm flush sockets). The top socket has the earth pin at the bottom of the socket and the bottom on has the earth at the top. They are not pre-wired together, but the connectiions are marked by 'L' and 'N' markers and if you look at the back of the socket both of the line connections are on the right and the neutrals are on the left. Remember that the top is a mirror immage of the bottom, so if you follow the makers instructions then no matter how you wire them on of the plugs you plug in is going to be line/neutral reversed. None of the new switches that I have just bought switch line and neutral, none of the appliances we have bought here switch both, the fuses in the main box only break line, so how is this system safer than that of the U.K. as the officialdom here claim. Oh yes, my T.V. is protected by a 13 amp fuse as is my electric kettle (3Kw)

John.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Jonzjob"]

None of the new switches that I have just bought switch line and neutral, none of the appliances we have bought here switch both, the fuses in the main box only break line, so how is this system safer than that of the U.K. as the officialdom here claim. Oh yes, my T.V. is protected by a 13 amp fuse as is my electric kettle (3Kw)

John.

[/quote]

The only answer I can think of is from the fuse v breaker point of view. Fuses take longer to blow and are not as acurate and are liable to being wrongly installed (a 13A for a 3A for example). I have to say that I think it would not be such a bad idea if the UK used the same sockets as the rest of europe, bit like the euro really it would make things so much easier. The Uk could still have fuzed plugs if they wanted of course.

[Jc]

You must have a massive TV if it needs a 13A fuse;a 3A fuse will be more than sufficient and better protection.

[bejay]

Polarity is not important for the correct functioning of most electrical equipment (there are some electronic devices which can be sensitive ) If it were, then electrical installaton would be designed to deal with it.

Polarity is important for single pole circuit protection (fuses or MCBs) and they must be in the line/live conductor. This occurs in the tableau in France and of course (finally) in the plug in the UK.

I have to say that I have a sentimental fondness for the idea that a switch should be in the live conductor but it isn't electrically essential.

Jc.  you make in interesting point about fused UK equipment. I have seen it suggested a number of times on this forum that one can cut off  a UK plug and replace it with a French one This of course raises the fuse rating for the particular device from possibly as low as 3 amps to probably as high as 32amp. Lets hope that the manufactures are ahead of us on this.

bj

[Alcazar]

[quote user="Jonzjob"]

Hi Alcazar, I got a problem? Are my fuses single or double pole? Sorry mate, just being a silly sod!!!

Our house has a fuse box, so I would like to think that all the sockets and switches are on the line side of the fuse, but I have just replaced all the switches and most of the sockets for posh new types. Some were switched or plugged line, but some were not.

I have a U.K. type socket checker that gives you the line/nuetral set up and if an earth is present (it doesn't give the earth quality). We got it when we started to come over to France on holliday wth our caravan. In our local OBI 'shed' they do French/English convertors, so if you have one of these tester plugs you can plug it into the converter and check all of your sockets. As I pointed out in an earlier thread, I bought a French flush double socket. One that fits into a single round hole in the wall (sorry to anyone that hasn't seen the French 60mm flush sockets). The top socket has the earth pin at the bottom of the socket and the bottom on has the earth at the top. They are not pre-wired together, but the connectiions are marked by 'L' and 'N' markers and if you look at the back of the socket both of the line connections are on the right and the neutrals are on the left. Remember that the top is a mirror immage of the bottom, so if you follow the makers instructions then no matter how you wire them on of the plugs you plug in is going to be line/neutral reversed. None of the new switches that I have just bought switch line and neutral, none of the appliances we have bought here switch both, the fuses in the main box only break line, so how is this system safer than that of the U.K. as the officialdom here claim. Oh yes, my T.V. is protected by a 13 amp fuse as is my electric kettle (3Kw)

John.

[/quote]

Hmmmmmmmm, double pole fuses?[8-)]

seriuosly, when I first investigated the electrics we bought our house with, there was ONE 16A fuse in the live side, and a second fuseholder, in the neutral side, but containing a barette, a sort of solid brass bar, the same size as a fuse, so that neutral could be isolated too. Strange system, I thought.

I've got one of those things for checking sockets, somewhere in the caravan. We used to use it on every French site, as the van battery charger didn't like reversed polarity, so I carried two adaptors, one normal, one reversed., the reversed one clearly marked in paint as such.

I've NEVER had a problem with campsites using the blue 16A connectors though.

Alcazar

[Jonzjob]

Has anyone noticed the difference between the 2 and 3 pin sockets here in France? They are both round and they both have the line and neutral sockets but the 2 pin socket has the earth pin missing (note please that here it is a male pin in the socket for earth!!). This means that you can put a 2 pin plug into a 3 pin socket, BUT you can also put a 3 pin plug into a 2 pin socket. Therefore you can plug an appliance that should have an earth into a socket that does NOT have an earth. Get a short to the metal bits on your kit and you have a live box and it ain't got anything to do with ADSL and wanadoo!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now telll me that the EU should all change to this system? Perhapse they should also change to the neat 'little' phone plugs here tooooo....

On that subject, by the time you have your ADSL filter, the plug so you can use your PC to 'fax' and your phone plugged piggyback into the phone socket you have to walk around it a bit carefully?

But for all that I love living here and all I do is make very sure that the sockets ALL have an earth, if they need one or not!

John (in the Aude, where the sun definately shon today!!!)

[bejay]

John. Which is one reason why the French are so keen on RCDs.

bj

[Gyn_Paul]

Yes, I can't understand why  the French 2-pin (unearthed) sockets on sale are round at all. Why don't they match the shape of the flat 2-pin plugs? That way nothing which needs an  earth could be plugged into an unearthed socket.

Anyone here with Dutch/German connections? My memory is that their plugs and sockets (chokko?) are definately NOT interchangable.

p

Oh, and the reason for the barrette in the neutral side of a fused circuit is that if BOTH sides were fused and just the one in the neutral side was to blow, then the entire system would be at mains potential right round to the broken fuse. Something which was common in the UK in the 2/5/15AMP days.

[Gyn_Paul]

Don't get me started on lumpen, ugly-great French phone sockets with their pins which make such crap contact!

Has anyone seen a surface-mounted ADSL filter? at least then it would be possible then to reduce the adaptor count by one!

p

[Choochoo]

Hi everybody

As previously mentioned, most modern electrical equipment doesnt care which way round you wire it. Has anybody noticed that a wiring picture in pas a pas shows the colours both ways round.

Anyway, a story. In my younger days as a TV engineer it was common practice for the TV manufacturer to use the metal chassis as the neutral return, to save wiring and therefore costs. This worked fine until Joe public wired up the mains plug the wrong way round. The TV worked fine like this but the chassis was now at mains potential !! Therefore standard practice was to put a mains tester to the chassis as soon as the back was off and to work with one hand behind your back wherever possible !! Doesnt bear thinking about, as lots of children used to use the ventilation holes at the back as a money box !! I have seen dodgy electrics in peoples homes that would make your hair curl, and all with little Johnny crawling around on the floor !!

Needless to say this crazy idea was soon dropped by the manufacturers.

Ah, those were the days.

 

John

[Mikew]

Ah, those were the days... I remember going to a customers house to look at the TV. Usual chassis check - Live! Checked the plug - OK, turned out the elec co had wired the mains feed the wrong way round!!  Didn't take them long to fix it either.

On the subject of changing plugs - I purchased a big brand name TV in the uk which was advertised as multi-standard. It wasn't - I couldn't get it to receive secam (satellite). Long and short of it, the suppliers, via the big name, imported me the genuine French multistandard version in exchange. Of course I had to cut off the two pin plug and fit a UK plug, with a 5amp fuse as that required by the (near) identical UK model!  The set is now over here in it's rightful home, none the worse for it's exposure to a UK ring main.

(5amp fuses instead of 3amp to cope with inrush current?)

[Jonzjob]

Of course, the other wonderful thing about the 2 pin plug is that you can plug it in either way round. So now you have just bought your new lovely metal bedside light with it's 2 pin plug firmly in place. You put it beside the bed and plug it in. In the middle of the night you wake and need a pee (did you realise the the 'P' in swimming is silent?) and reach out for the light switch, which is on the lamp, and there is a fault. Two things can happpen here       1. if the plug is in the wrong way round you willl get the belt as soon as you touch it and    2. if it's in the right way round the belt comes when you switch it on.  OK I know that the lamp 'should' have an earth, but I have seen enough of the metal lamps without an earth to know that it don't always happpen. But you can buy the lamp with an earth and then plug  it into a 2 pin socket anyway. Don't you just love the French and their safety systems, none of the granny state here!

John.

P.S. And just because it has an earth pin it doesn't mean that the earth pin is connnected, one in our house wasn't. So if you want be bloody sure the best plan is to get in touch with the U.K. Caravan Club and buy one of the mains tester plug thingies. I've had one for years. But would you believe that I never, before now, thought of pluggging it into a French/U.K. converter to check the sockets... (I wonder where the hell it is????????????)[8-)]

[Gyn_Paul]

Ah yes, but that would have to be a UK lamp with a stupid, fiddly push switch built in to the lampholder, as opposed to a continental one with the switch in the cable.

In the dark in the middle of the night, I'm not sure which I hate most, the scrabbling around on a lamp holder trying to orient the switch to push it the right way without toppling the whole thing over and waking the entire house, or fishing around on the bedside table to find the cable and then the torpedo switch!

I think, on balance, the  former.

p

[andyh4]

Quillan do pray tell us about these European sockets.  My French sockets have a male earth pole, my German sockets have no earth pole but rely on a slide contact at the edge of the plug to make the earth connection and Italian sockets take 3 male pins from the plug all in line.

Admittedly most electrical goods now come with a plug that will fit both the German and French sockets, but that still has left me with a lot of white goods to retroactively fit with an appropriate plug.