Glazing.

[Chris Head]

I've just made some windows and feel like glazing them myself, can I use a silicone to bed the glass up to the beading or does it have to be putty?

[Gluestick]

Personally, these days, Chris, I always use various forms of synthetic mastic.

Putty is fine, but goes too hard too quickly.

In any case, most glaziers "Putty" these days is a far cry from whiting and linseed oil.

I am at present - slowly! - routing out my window frames and fitting double-glazed units and use silicon glazing mastic. Couldn't see the point in junking excellent hardwood frames for new, when each professionally made unit costs me £12 + VAT. Plenty of meat in the frame to bed a standard 10 m.m. gap DG unit + 2 X 5 m.m glass.

 

[Dick Smith]

Would that work on sash windows?

[Chris Head]

Cheers Gluestick, good info as always. The glass will be 6mm as the windows will be installed into an existing granite wall which then have an Oak greenhouse/conservatory built onto it, I'll glaze that with 5-6-5 or 6-6-6, the prices are really good for the DG, in the region of 55euro m2 for the former and 65euro m2 for the latter.

I'll just bet your cutters love that old Oak!

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Would that work on sash windows?
[/quote]

Can't see why not, Dick.

After all, the putty only serves as a bed, to level the glass and thereafter seal it in. And real putty goes rock hard after a year or two, whereas a good glazing quality mastic stays marginally, well mastic, for much longer.

 

[Cassis]

Did you order your glazing units from an ordinary window supplier, Gluestick?  I've been thinking of doing what you have done with some of our windows and doors - multipanelled, each panel about 30x30cm and plenty of meat in the frames.  Plus I love routing!

PS did you buy in UK or over here?

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Chris Head"]

I'll just bet your cutters love that old Oak!

[/quote]

Sadly, Chris, it isn't oak - wish it were! Some form of very close-grained hardwood, might be a form of mahogany, but not as regular as Brazilian, suspect Philipine.

The big pro router has lots of grunt and I only use CT cutters and they whip through it![blink]

 

[Gluestick]

Cheated a bit here, Cassis.

One of my UK clients runs a big glazing biz and make all the DG units themselves.

Mine were circa 1 m high by .5 m wide X 2 per frame. (They are casement doubles). They are in one piece and have the wood moulding fitted on the outside to make them look like six small squares.

I bring over two each time. B****Y heavy, as well!

I love routing, too! One of these days I'll get to use the multitude of cutters I seem to keep buying![:D]

 

 

[Chris Head]

You're allowed to buy cutters GS? Now I'm jealous!

I use the top end Makita routers, fantastic machines.

[Gluestick]

I seem to think that the big beast is an Erbaur?? Also have a small Bosch which is very handy.

I am a mug for "Toys", Chris! Always have been with tools, although I do try and temper the urges to keep it down to things which will actually be used............................................some day!

Probably one of the problems is that having spent quite a few years, previously, building up a very well equipped workshop and machine shop, one becomes used to be able to do nearly everything in-house.

I am currently fantasizing about a Mylford ML7 or similar.[blink]

Luckily Mrs G is not reading this!

 

[Chris Head]

>>I am a mug for "Toys", Chris!<<

Funny Gluestick, I'm just the opposite, I really believe that the more control one gives over to machines the less one's skills, creative ability and lateral thinking develop, for me the whole thing is about the challenge and furthering ones skills and products. Sure there are one or two small things I wouldn't mind, but they wouldn't change my style or what I produce.

[Gluestick]

Don't get me wrong, Chris, I totally agree about craft skills and have always improvised.

Nothing better than making something as far as possible by hand, where you can.

I've spent far more time with metal, though and here, it's important to have the right kit.

Difficult to make a screwthread by hand!

With wood it's totally different: despite my electric plane - which I rarely use - I do enjoy using one of my old wood planes. I even have my original wooden box plane, bought when I was about 14.

The routers and boxes of cutters do come in handy: a few years back, a builder was doing some re-furb work for me and it proved impossible to buy matching architrave. So with a bit of fiddling and using two different router bits we jointly made an exact profile from some prepared wood.

 

[Jonzjob]

[quote user="Gluestick"][quote user="Chris Head"]

I'll just bet your cutters love that old Oak!

[/quote]

Sadly, Chris, it isn't oak - wish it were! Some form of very close-grained hardwood, might be a form of mahogany, but not as regular as Brazilian, suspect Philipine.

The big pro router has lots of grunt and I only use CT cutters and they whip through it![blink]

 

[/quote]

Hi GS, the wood if it's like mahogany, close grained and here in France it could well be Iroko. Lovely hardwaring wood when it's finished, but be careful of the dust if it is, or could be Iroko. It playes hell with me, my eyes go red and sore and it brings a rash up on my hands and arms. It's carconagenic (spelling?) and not nice to work unless you have very good venitlation and a dust mask. I have turned it a couple of times and now refuse to do so. I made a lovely box for a mate. Completely cut out with my band saw and it was the block with the middle cut out, but part way through I realised it was Iroko. I thought sod it and finished it and suffered the consequences for a couple of weeks.

Please be careful, it can hurt!

[Gluestick]

Thanks, JJ. I shall be more careful in future! [blink]

And now, all I have to do is remove the awful green paint from the windows and frames....................

Just repainted the exterior, cream; new shutters which I have finished in natural stain (Leyland - very good and far cheaper than Sadlins, e.g.) and I want all the windows and frames natural wood.

It never ends..................

 

[George]

Re silicone does anyone have a trade name to look for?  Have started to strip back my white painted windows with a view to dark wood staining them, but the problem is what to do with the putty  (some parts really hard and difficult to remove other bits just falling away).

I contacted Sadolin who suggested using silicone but would not give me a name.  My research has found a Dow Corning product but can't seem to find anything like it in France or enven here in the UK except to order over the Internet, but I would like to try a small quantity first.  I have found some brown putty and may have to work with that instead.

 

 

 

 

[Gluestick]

Brico Depot stock two: the most suitable appears to be Rubson, brand, Mastic Vitrage HP, cat. no. 731459, at € 6,52 per 310 ml tube. They also list an alternative product, again Rubson, Mastic Silicone Isolant, No. 731454 at € 8,32 per 310 ml tube .

Removing putty from a glazing rebate is always hard, mainly since no one seems to adopt the old wheeze of firstly painting over the rebate with primer. The putty gets right down into the grain and is a pig to remove without bits of wood. I tend to use a reversed chisel and then draw the blade over the last bits of putty with the blade absolutely vertical to level and if necessary, finally, some course sandpaper to flatten the surface.

 

[Chris Head]

Robin wrote >>I have had no problems with silicon but use very deep rebates for DG units to protect the space bars from the effects of the sun.<<

What do you mean by that Robin?

[Gluestick]

I would be interested in the answer to that, too, Chris.

Most DG units I have used have an ally width strip and the synthetic (neoprene I believe) back and end bits are pretty well concealed from direct sunlight and thus UV in a normal rebate, plus, of course, the exterior finish moulding provides some level of shield.

 

[George]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Brico Depot stock two: the most suitable appears to be Rubson, brand, Mastic Vitrage HP, cat. no. 731459, at € 6,52 per 310 ml tube. They also list an alternative product, again Rubson, Mastic Silicone Isolant, No. 731454 at € 8,32 per 310 ml tube .

Removing putty from a glazing rebate is always hard, mainly since no one seems to adopt the old wheeze of firstly painting over the rebate with primer. The putty gets right down into the grain and is a pig to remove without bits of wood. I tend to use a reversed chisel and then draw the blade over the last bits of putty with the blade absolutely vertical to level and if necessary, finally, some course sandpaper to flatten the surface.

[/quote]

Thanks Gluestick - thought I had looked everywhere in Brico Depot.  As to the putty, yes and some of it is rock hard.  Frightened to try any harder with my old chisel and mallet, yet other bits seem to fall away just looking at it. [;-)]

[Gluestick]

My pleasure. One of the difficulties with Brico Depot is that the staff seem to have little product knowledge and even less interest in helping! Still, I guess that's what one can expect with their pile it high and sell it cheap philosophy! However, they can normally track items from the catalogue number. Normally...........[blink]

With rock hard putty, try holding the chisel completely upright (flat side of the blade in the direction you intend to go) and simply "pull" the chisel along, putting considerable downward pressure on the handle.

This way, you avoid digging in to the wood fibres: and the harder the putty has become, the more likely it is to come away. The chisel is acting as a scraper, rather than a cutter.

Always use a much wider chisel than the rebate: avoids making a sort of trough in the material.

 

[Dave&Olive]

hi

 ok pc been off for a bit ... look but cannot see type of fault ...

  have you tried glazing tape???? have made  a few windows frames for this house and used it here . it`s like errrr the same sort of stuff they give you to fit a sink top to the worktop double sided peel off putty for a better word , just peel off one back stick it to the wood peel of the other side and stick the glass to it ,then just use the mastic type glazing putty to fill in the gap thats left on the outside and fill in the gap on the inside before you fit your glazing bars.

 

                       clear as mud

                                                    dave

[bejay]

A few points which may help.

Chris

Don't use putty. it is awful stuff , As has been said earlier it sets rock hard after a few years its in contact with wood which is forever expanding and contracting so it always will crack and let water into the rebate inside and out. The frame then rots, end of frame, end of story.

Bead of silicon on rebate upstand, fit D/G unit, then bead of silicon on glass and round frame then fix  glazing bead. This works well enough. The rebate should be at least 16 mm deep (often 24 is used  these days) and the unit must be set on glazing blocks.(short lengths of plastic or wood about 3 mm thick). Top and bottom glazing beads should be cut square and fitted first, verticals then cut to fit, don't use mitres. Oh , and don't touch any exuded silicon until it is well and truly set!

This method is NOT best practice but it is a hell of sight better than putty. I prefer to use a non setting mastic to bed the glass into the frame it gives amuch better finished look to the inside of the window but it is difficult to obtain in the UK..

Dryglazing tape is a neat and clean system but it only works well in machine-perfect rebates.

I do not know the regulations for glazing in france and I don't remember seeing them ever mentioned on this forum but in the UK they cover two distinct areas, one is insulation and the other is safety

Insulation: minimum spec for D/G units is 24mm thickness  ((4-16-4) I have not come across 5mm glass yet) and, I believe,  pilkington K glass.(for new and replacement windows, it doesn't apply to repair work)

Safety: Glass in doors and 300mm to the side of doors to be in safety glass up to a height of 1500mm  Glass in windows less than 800mm above floor level to be in safety glass

This is a substantial simplification of the UK regulations and I would be very interested to hear the french version. Apologies Chris if you know all this but if you are doing glazing work for customers you need to get this bit right

 

bj

 

[Chris Head]

Thanks for taking the time to write that bj, it's excellent information and another step forward. I'll check on the regs for glazing here. Glazing has never really interested me but I'd rather see the whole project through now.

This is a barn aperture that I framed, my sidekick glazed it. The glass is 6mm and was puttied up to the beading. As the barn is for utility use the stlye was kept simple and DG wasn't used.

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/chrishead/captures2005-6-1500000-1.jpg[/IMG]

I'm starting on a similar barn aperture soon but this time the setting is more formal as the interior of the barn will be living space. The framing is 150mm2 green Oak and there won't be any doors. I'm going to make seperate panels to go in the opening and will be using 6-6-6 DG units. The framing for the panels and all beading will be kiln dried Oak.

Why are mitres a no-no? I don't understand that bit.

[Gluestick]

Another reasons for not using putty, Chris - which I forgot and ought to have mentioned before! - is that actually, glass never sets.

Once molten glass is cast, it seems to solidify: in fact it is still marginally fluid and over time, flows when panes are mounted vertically, such as in a window.

Old Victorian glass, for example, can clearly demonstrate (with a micrometer, e.g.) how it is much thicker at the bottom than the top.

Ergo, using putty which sets rock hard, as the oil dries out, means that the bed is fixed, yet the glass is moving.

Using mastic of the correct type means that the mastic bed can self-adjust, within reason, to the changing shape of the glass.

Additionally sunlight causes the glass to expand and Winter cold the reverse: mastic will adjust to this, whereas over time, the putty bed will work lose.

 

[Chris Head]

More great stuff GS, I've learned alot on this thread.