plumbing?

[shimble]

ive just read with interest the plumbing section a wealth of information thanks, so ive leant that hot water pipes can expand ive also learnt that the standard pipe from the counter is 18mm i was discussing plumbing today so ive got a couple of questions. 

from water meter here ive got what looks like 12mm copper feeding the barn which goes into a larger bore plastic pipe probably 20-25mm wellit all needs redoing so i want to put a manifold in near the meer and then run lines where they are need from this.

i see often rolls of plastic water pipe in the bricos which i would think is either 10 or 12mm but not often the 18mm pipe, so is this 10-12mm pipe ok to be used on long runs,aslong as i take into account flexing for the hot water. i noticed someone on the section above was having some problems using 12mm as taps were running dry when other taps were turned on, if i try and keep each room/appliance on a seperate line from the manifold will this eliminate this. bearing in mind as this is a private house i am not likely to have all the taps and appliances running at the same time.

lastly using plastic pipes how does this work with bonding to earth on the fittings? does each fitting need to bonded seperately? how does it work?

anyway if anyone can offer any advise it is much appreciated take care yall amuse toi bien 

[Chancer]

If you are converting the barn to a dwelling then I would run a 20mm, preferably 25mm potable PU pipe from the meter to the property and fit the manifold there after the stop cock, if not you will have real difficulties trying to shut off a feed if you have a leak or drill through a pipe.

I would then run in 18mm to ballon de chaud and also to shower/bath, smaller sizes can be used for sinks and as low as 12mm for toilets unless you want them to refill quickly.

As for earth bonding you must run a seperate liason equipotential to the kitchen and bathroom(s) any copper pipes in these areas must be connected to it, you cannot use them as the earth return loop.

 

[shimble]

right the meter is in the "attached" barn and i was intending to put the manifold just after the main stop valve each outlet on the manifold will then have a seperate stop valve and hopefully each lie will be resonably unique to an appliance. so am i allowed to use plastic pipe for the ballon  de chaud can i get fittings and reducers depending on he sizes i want i presume that is a yes. in the bathroom and kitchen if i have for instance a section of plastic pipe with brass fittings  then a section of plastic followed by a brass manifold then more plastic pipe ending in a stainless steel flexible does each section of metal fittings nedded to be bonded together i have run an earth to these rooms from the earth on the tableau electrique this is just an earth line and is individual of any current lines is this ok?

and why would you use 18mm for the ballonde chaud and the shower/bath and not 12mm? with the water presure will these appliance be starved of water?

hope you can answer this aswell

merci beacoup pour le temp que vous m'avez accorde

[Dave&Olive]

hi

 ok  there seems to be 2 different types of copper pipes here , the long straight lengths seem to be hard copper and are hard to bend , but the coils seem to be easy to bend , I have my own pipe benders and worked in a brewery for 20 years so pipe fitting  is not somthing new to me , but would like a plumber to say yes thats right..

 any way back to the posting ... if you pick up one of the coils of copper pipe ,they come plastic wraped on a card , the card shows all the sizes of pipe you need from the inlet to every fitting off it ... I kept one here for ref. but cannot find it otherwise would have posted sizes.

        hope it helps

                Dave

[Anton Redman]

The 12 mm will not provide suffcient flow for a hot water cylinder. There comes a point irrespective or pressure when turbulent flow occurs because of the friction on the pipe sides.

For plastic PER - 20 mm to a bath room - 16 mm to a shower ( I would use 20) or sink, 12 mm to basins and WCs.

 

[shimble]

many thanks i shall investigate this next time at the bricos itsmucheasier when you have an idea what you are looking for so thanks a lot

[Anton Redman]

If you go down the PER route draw up a diagram of exactly what you need and go to a large outlet. Local Bricos do not normnally carry enough stock.

[shimble]

thanks what size would you recommend for washing machine and dishwaters and just to be thick what is per?

[Anton Redman]

The rolls of red or blue 20,16 or 12 mm plastic pipe in the Brico are PER or PEX. 16mm should be enough for dishwasher or washing machine.

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="shimble"]

right the meter is in the "attached" barn and

i was intending to put the manifold just after the main stop valve each

outlet on the manifold will then have a seperate stop valve and

hopefully each lie will be resonably unique to an appliance. so am

i allowed to use plastic pipe for the ballon  de chaud can i get

fittings and reducers depending on he sizes i want i presume that is a

yes. in the bathroom and kitchen if i have for instance a section

of plastic pipe with brass fittings  then a section of

plastic followed by a brass manifold then more plastic pipe ending

in a stainless steel flexible does each section of metal fittings

nedded to be bonded together i have run an earth to these rooms from

the earth on the tableau electrique this is just an earth line and is

individual of any current lines is this ok?

and why would you use 18mm for the ballonde chaud and the

shower/bath and not 12mm? with the water presure will these appliance

be starved of water?

hope you can answer this aswell

merci beacoup pour le temp que vous m'avez accorde

[/quote]

It's the appliances at the end of the pipes which need to be earthed,

rather than individual bits of metal in lengths of plastic.

[Gluestick]

[quote]

 ok  there seems to be 2 different types of copper pipes here , the long straight lengths seem to be hard copper and are hard to bend , but the coils seem to be easy to bend , I have my own pipe benders and worked in a brewery for 20 years so pipe fitting  is not somthing new to me , but would like a plumber to say yes thats right..

[/quote]

 

The coils are already annealed, Dave and after you have straightened them (easiest way is by wearing very soft shoes and "walking" along the pipe as you unroll it),  simple to bend.

The straight lengths need annealing prior to trying to bend them: if they are not annealed then they can split in the bend under pressure.

Annealing simply means heating the pipe to cherry red and allowing it to cool naturally, which avoids any risk of recreating the crystalline formation which have made it hard. You can quench in water, however pretty tricky with a large length of pipe!

[Mel Prett]

You have to quench copper in water to anneal it. The opposite for steel anyway only the bit that needs bending has to be annealed not the whole length.

Mel 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Mel Prett"]

You have to quench copper in water to anneal it. The opposite for steel anyway only the bit that needs bending has to be annealed not the whole length.

Mel 

[/quote]

Sorry to disgree, Mel but not so. You can successfully anneal copper by either allowing it to cool, naturally, or you can quench it.

Since (by Dr Sodz's Law) bends are invariably required in the middle of a length  of pipe and since copper plumbing pipe tends to come in 2-3 metre lengths, it's hard to imagine a 3 metre long quenching trough........[Www]

Simply splashing water on will in fact have the reverse of the desired effect: it will tend to create partial crystalline areas and not ensure overall ductility and malleability.

Steel is different: any alloy of iron with carbon and other trace elements can be tempered and de-tempered and subsequently hardened. To temper requires quenching,  and normally in an oil bath as the boiling point of water is far too low: to de-temper, as you say, requires natural cooling, usually  muffed with hessian or in a sandbath to avoid spot air quenching and thus hard spotting.

Lots on Google re annealing copper: opinion is divided, but agrees either natural or quench cooling has the desired result.