Property Valuation.

[Rabbie]

Is it possible to get an independent valuation of a property in France in the same way you can get a surveyor to do this in the UK. If so who would you contact for this and what sort of charges would they make.

[idun]

I would have thought that local estate agents would have a good idea as to the valuation of a property. Our local ones seemed to know the local market well.

I don't know how one values property anyway. ie my old neighbour in France. He hasn't lived in his property for about 10 years now. It is going to rack and ruin, still on the market for the same stupid price he wanted years ago. He wouldn't listen to anyone about how much his place was worth.

Surveyors in the UK? as in the ones who used to do drive pasts during

the property booms, when the UK market became the shameful thing it is. I have only found one surveyor in the UK who I would in any way trust. I personally have more faith in french estate agents, but maybe that is just me.[:)]

[NormanH]

I believe that you can ask an estate agent to do this as a paying service even if you aren't selling with them.

Whether their advice is worth anything is a different matter...

[Rabbie]

I was actually wanting to do this as a buyer as I know that sellers are often asking more than the market value which accounts to some extend for the properties taking a long time to sell. 

I have seen that properties which seem to be realistically priced are selling quite quickly often within a matter of weeks.

I am really looking for the French equivalent of an \English Valuation report if that exists

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NormanH]

Obviously prices and conditions vary widely, but when I bought a flat recently I offered two thirds of the asking price and the flat above was about the same.

A house I would have liked around the corner was on the market at 60k and they have just accepted an offer of 42k so in this band the 65% rule seems to be about right...

I don't know of any valuation service for buyers..

[suein56]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

I was actually wanting to do this as a buyer ...

I am really looking for the French equivalent of an \English Valuation report if that exists ... [/quote]

Doubtful ; as most French people I know take a builder/maitre d'oeuvre round with them if they are genuine potential buyers and want to extend/improve the property they are considering buying.

On the other hand a serious estate agent or a notaire will give a realistic written selling/buying price for a fee; around 80€ or so the last time i asked a few years ago.

Edit : And yes I agree some vendors ignore all advice and ask the earth for their property, just in case a wealthy idiot should be interested in it.

Sue

[Rabbie]

Thanks for the replies. I was PMd suggesting asking a Notaire so shall take that route.

[suein56]

[quote user="Rabbie"] I was PMd suggesting asking a Notaire so shall take that route.[/quote]

Good move, but ask around if you can beforehand as some Notaires are seemingly still living and working in the 20th century.

Sue

[idun]

I am going to sound horribly cynical here, but I have not had much reason to have confidence in the notaires we have used. We have seen four about properties/land over the years, and two have not in my opinion done their job with integrity.

The problem with a notaire doing this is that they may 'know' the vendor and be more than willing to indicate that the particular property has a worth that is beyond the true price.

Or as in our case, the particular notaire's local knowledge was not for our benefit, we families (we anglais, the rest french) who bought land  on our little lotissement , but for others. Proving anything untoward would have been extremely difficult as was pointed out to one of my neighbours, who was told to watch his tongue. We were left with problems that none of us had envisaged.

So if you ask a notaire, get more information from the Mairie, DDE and local estate agents and general village gossip. Notaires are good at collecting the taxes they need to, but some I have found can have their own agendas.

[NormanH]

Absolutely true.

[suein56]

[quote user="idun"]Notaires are good at collecting the taxes they need to, but some I have found can have their own agendas.

[/quote]

In the years OH and I were looking for a house in a location we liked in our price bracket I got to know our local band of estate agents quite well and some of them definitely had their own interests very much at heart; the poor client was just a cash-cow.

So, it pays to watch and learn about who is likely to be more honest and upfront.

Sue

[EuroTrash]

What's the 'market value' of a property? In France, it's either the figure that a purchaser is prepared to pay for it, or the figure that the seller is prepared to accept for it, whichever is the higher.

It's not quite like the UK where property is a commodity, discussing house prices is a national pastime, lenders publish regular updates showing price movements over the last month, price trends are driven because there are a lot of very similar properties on the market and the vast majority of sellers are actively trying hard to sell. It's a looser market in France. Prices find their own level and trends are set retrospectively, rather than being driven in advance by interested parties who create expectations in order to manipulate the market.

Are you wanting a valuation to indicate to you what you should offer, or to persuade the vendor to drop their price? If the latter, I very much doubt whether a random valuation from a third party will make them revise their price - they'll have had their own valuations done, every valuation will be different and they'll believe the one they want to believe. If the former, why not study what's for sale in the area and compare similar properties. That's basically all your valuer will do.

[Rabbie]

I agree with your definition of "Market value" but I have noticed in while house hunting that there seem to be large variations in the asking price of fairly similar properties. I know from experience that many vendors ignore valuation advice from their estate agents and seem to hope that an English person will pay over the odds because the price is still at lot less than the English equivalent. I have also noticed that many of these properties seem to remain unsold for years.

Not having unlimited financial resources we do not want to offer more than is necessary but also do not want to insult people by offering a derisory sum. As we are looking for a very specific type of property there is not so much  else to compare prices but looking at other properties within an hours drive this one does seem a bit optimistically priced. the fact that an otherwise very nice property is still available seems to confirm this impression.

Once again thanks for all the helpful advice which is being considered by myself and Mrs Rabbie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[idun]

 I realise that it is not easy. As I said, my neighbour, off the top of his head decided on how much his property was worth and the way it is going it'll have fallen down before he sells it.

The other problem is local knowledge, we don't have it. Even french people moving into an area don't either, I have seen and heard of enough problems over the years.

 In spite of some of the problems we incurred, I count my self lucky that we had so few.

One of the things is the weather a few kms can make one heck of a difference, but how would we know. I must say in the Rhone Alpes we looked over quite a big area and one area we were told to avoid was the 'terres froides'. Housing was definitely a LOT cheaper and it all looked very nice to us, but I'm glad we didn't move there, it is called that for a reason. In fact in my old region I know plenty of places I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, and yet, those who simply visit would probably see rather quaint pleasant places.

I know that french tv is reveilled and dismissed out of hand on here, pity really, there are some very good reporting programs on it, including problems encountered in rural France.........

Good luck with your house hunting and once you have seen where you fancy, and I would suggest this for anyone house hunting........... google for articles in the local press, ask about big projects:-

 autoroutes, TGV lines, prisons being built, housing estates being built..........eoliennes and ofcourse flooding and general wet ground. Then access and rights of way all in writing including being informed of any disputes and all your bornes are in place!

That little lot should cover the basics.

[NormanH]

do not want to insult people by offering a derisory sum.

I think very few people selling at the moment would be insulted by any offer, even if they refuse it.

A case in point: my son recently offered 23k for a place which as asking 49.

It was refused, but the agent told me (rather than my so so it wasn't a direct negotiation) that 30k would be accepted...

Try an offer of 60% and see...

[YCCMB]

I would second Norman's observation. A close French friend's daughter recently bought a property not far from us, and offered exactly half the asking price. It was accepted. There is a house just around the corner from ours which was on the market for 180K. It sold for 80K. If they refuse, you can always up your offer. Nothing worse than making an offer and having your hand bitten off, only to think you could probably have offered less and still been successful....

[Tancrède]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I would second Norman's observation. [/quote]

Absolutely.  You mustn't be afraid of derisory offers  -  they will be charmed an delighted to get any offer.  And if they aren't, tant pis.

When I made my very low offer for the house I have just moved into, I had to brace myself to say the sum. 

To my delight, the excellent and entertaining agent, grimly (but without contempt) wrote it in figures on a piece of paper, held it up like a 'flash-card', and said,  Do you mean this ?

When this was followed by,  And are you going to be in the town for the rest of the day ?  I knew that it was in the bag.

And as for paying a seventeen-year-old in a polyester suit to pluck a figure out of the air  -  why would the vendors be remotely interested in this person's opinion ?

If, on the other hand, a derisory offer is made to you as a vendor, a totally different pack of cards is needed…

[Rabbie]

Update.  We finally put in an offer for this property at about 75% of the asking price which was rejected out of hand with no indication of what they would accept. The delay in putting an offer in was due to the fact that we needed a bit more land close to the property to rent or buy and this took a little time to resolve. The property has been on the market and has produced little interest due to it being overpriced. Our bit was based on the price of similar properties with French estate agents and adjusted for condition of the house and amount of land, situation etc.

Is it just my imagination or are properties with English language agents generally more expensive than those with French agents? I would be interested to hear what other people think.

[mint]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

Update.  We finally put in an offer for this property at about 75% of the asking price which was rejected out of hand with no indication of what they would accept. The delay in putting an offer in was due to the fact that we needed a bit more land close to the property to rent or buy and this took a little time to resolve. The property has been on the market and has produced little interest due to it being overpriced. Our bit was based on the price of similar properties with French estate agents and adjusted for condition of the house and amount of land, situation etc.

Is it just my imagination or are properties with English language agents generally more expensive than those with French agents? I would be interested to hear what other people think.

[/quote]

Well, I don't think that your imagination is playing tricks with you completely![:)]

After all the English language intermediaries often have to share the fees with the French agents who cannot deal with inquiries in English because of lack of language, time, resources, etc.

What often happens is the French agent (a properly sent up immo and not one doing the selling on a self-employed basis for the owner of the agency) lets an English intermediary  deal with anglophone clients on, I suppose, a no sale no fees basis, thereby increasing his potential markets.

Why not go direct through leboncoin or entre particulièrs and just deal with the owners?

[Quillan]

Mint is just about spot on. To be honest I have been living in my area for twelve years now and there is one agent I would not touch because this is exactly what he does. The Brits selling for him (there have been four or five over the years) even advertise the properties in other sources (usually on UK websites like Right Moves etc) and pay for the advertising themselves to try and get a sale because they are on a commision only basis. To be honest they are usually Brits who have a business thats not doing so well and are on what we call 'the slippery slope'. They do a year or two with this guy then disappear placing their own home on the market often leaving a tale of woe behind them with regards to unhappy buyers.

When we bought we offered the market price which was lower than the asking price but we went through a French agent who spoke some English and used an interpreter that we hired for the rest. The agent told the seller they had the property on the market for too strong a price and told them to accept our offer or wait a long time for a better deal (if anyone offered them one) so they accepted. So in this case your agent may not have put your offer to the seller strong enough.

When we travelled through France looking at properties we dealt with a couple of Brits 'tied' to French agents and having travelled 200 miles to see a specific house through one such agent only to be told said house had been sold a week previously but the 'agent' had another house we might be interested in we said we would never work with British 'agents' again in France and only dealt with French ones (who we found very honest by the way and supported us for over a year after we bought the property) after that.

That aside don't be put off. If you really are interested in the house then go back with another offer of say 20% off and sit with the agent when he makes the call. Tell him to stress this is your last and final offer, the house is way over priced and if they don't accept you will be walking away and they will have to wait a long time for another offer which may be even less than your offering as prices in France are going down and are expected to continue to go down for some time. On the brighter side the decline in house prices means you may get a house that you thought was out of your price range a couple of years ago. Personally I would look at buying, through a French agent, a house owned by Brits as many are keen to get back to the UK what with falling prices and the cost of living going up.

[NormanH]

Update.  We finally put in an offer for this property at about 75% of

the asking price which was rejected out of hand with no indication of

what they would accept.

You must be feeling disappointed but have lost nothing. There is still no need to panic. This is the moment to take stock and decide how you really feel. I have the impression that you really want this place and I suspect the agent has picked up on that, and is advising them to refuse on the basis you will come back with a higher offer.

You can do one of the following:

Walk away, but not before calling the agent again and stressing that yours is a serious offer and you would be in a position to sign a compomis straight away

Cave in and make a much higher offer that wil probably be accepted

Offer another few k saying something such as in the first above but adding that this is your final offer (it doesn't have to be of course.)

Only you know how much the house is worth to you so that is the price you should pay.

You have not in anyway upset anybody. They have refused as a negotiating tactic not because they are insulted

I was going to say that this must be with an English agent, or one of the big chains such as Century 21 which are American I believe. The flat I bought recently was one of four, two of which were with one of these agents and the other two with a local French agent who really knows the town and the value of local property. The two with him were at 65% of the price of the other two and have both sold.

Since I have been there no-one has even looked at the other two.

This is what I mean when I speak of 'English' and 'French' prices

[mint]

Or you could, of course, put the ball right back in their court and ask them what they WOULD accept.

You could then decide whether you are prepared to pay their price or not.

 Until Norman pointed it out, I hadn't considered that you might really want this house.......................what an old cynic I have become!

[Rabbie]

Looks like the deal is off. Although the sellers reduced their asking price by a small amount the asking price was still far beyond what we considered the property to be worth. I suspect their valuation reflected what they had paid for the property and what they had spent on renovation and also what they needed to move back to the UK. Our valuation was based on the asking price of similar properties and still left a gap of approx. 80,000 € so it's back to looking for the right place. While I don't mind paying for the right place I object to paying well over the odds and then being treated as if I were a timewaster just because I refuse to subsidise their return to the UK. I gather that they have not had any other offers so they may well be staying in France longer than intended.

[woolybanana]

Be fair, nobody wants to lose 80000. That is a heck of a lot of money. And there is no reason why the owner should accept an offer they consider inappropriate. And if it means they have to wait for a buyer who is prepared to pay what they consider a fair value price, then that is also their choice

[Quillan]

Yes Wooly but I think what Rabbie is saying that like for like properties in the area are a lot cheaper. Many people who renovate their property seem to think that the cost of their renovation should be represented in the price which is not always correct especially with house prices in France falling. There is also the thing about houses renovated by Brits who quite often do things the "British way" which is quite different to how the French do it. I am thinking plumbing, electricity etc. How does one know whats in the walls of the house and if it is done properly?