Solar Water Heating

[UlsterRugby1999]

Hi all - whats your views on this package from BricoDepot. I know many of you are not big fans of BricoDepot but this, on the face of it and to the uneducated like me, seems a decent offer. It comes with a single panel and a 300L tank with full electrical equipment. If I read it correctly it includes instalation of the tank system which may qualify for the tax credit.

http://www.bricodepot.fr/chateauroux/chauffage-production-d-eau-chaude/chauffe-eau-solaire

[Poolguy]

Yes, its a VERY basic solar DHW system and if your living near Marseilles then it will probable do a decent job.

I cannot tell for sure but the Tubes look like 47mm x 18 which will yield about 6kw on a sunny day with a 300lt cylinder with 50mm insulation that would mean that you will get enough hot water for showers for a family of 4 in the summer months. But as the tank has so little insulation and the power in the panel is so low that, during the winter in Southern France it will struggle. If your intention is to install it in Central or Northern France, according to my reckoning, then its 'luke warm' at best, and in winter .... well your going to need electric.

Solar is about 2 main principles that this offer doesn't really address. The first is power input, For Southern France to heat that amount of water I would recommend at least 12kw and the further north you go the more that figure should rise. Then the tank will loose over 1°C per hour so that means that the heat that you are getting isn't staying put till you need it. So at least 100mm of insulation on the tank is a standard to ensure that the system does what its supposed to do.

If anyone is tempted to go for offers like this from the Brico chains be advised that YOU WILL NOT GET A CREDIT IMPOT. To qualify for the Rebate, the equipment and the installation MUST be on the same facture from a Qualisol registered installer and its only the Panel which is rebateable(worth about €200). If it happens that they promise you otherwise then it will only mean that the tax office will come looking for repayment of the rebate later on, and you have no redress to Brico marche for lying to you.

I hope that this has made a few realities a bit clearer

Andrew

[Le Plombier]

You enjoy a tepid shower then my friend

Le Plombier

[Panda]

When a DIY store offers installation the whole cost can normally be credited against impots. The installation is done by a specialist not a Brico Depot shelf filler after all..

...And the costs can be on the same bill, mine were not solar but other items, can't see why it would be dffierent for solar.

[Poolguy]

Panda

Got it completly wrong.... very poor advice.

Take the time to read the Act before you offer your views, the tax department are not stupid.

Andrew

 

[Panda]

Hello PG

Are you saying then that these shops are using installers that are not qualified to do the job?

No one said the tax department are stupid although you are suggesting that the large chain DIY shops are by engaging non qulified installers to installl solar.

NB. Why don't you shock us all by posting on a thread that isn't something you have a vested interest in!

Panda

[Théière]

That is not what Andrew said,

He is informing people of the rules regarding the impots. "To qualify for the Rebate, the equipment and the installation MUST be on the same facture from a Qualisol registered installer and its only the Panel which is rebateable(worth about €200). " If you think that is wrong then say so.

Amazing that on another thread, Plumbing, there is a moan about people not being qualified to give advice and when they are qualified because it is what they do that's wrong too.

France is a bloody big place and it is simply not economic to try and get round to sell and fix up pools, heating or anything else. Posting information is good for everyone as Le Plombier said on the other thread, "I do try to offer advice from time to time but, I suspect, like my fellow practising professionals in France, I am far too busy to commit to a heavy involvement to a forum
A quick look while I deal with my email at night is the only time I have "

Well I appreciate their imput

[herbert]

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public?paf_dm=popup&paf_gm=content&espId=1&typePage=cpr02&paf_gear_id=500018&docOid=documentstandard_2571

quotation"its only the Panel which is rebateable(worth about €200)"

that is wrong

the credit impot is given for the whole installation.

I had solar power installed for water and addition to the central heating last year and just received the letter from the centre d'impot. Just go to an experienced registered company, They will tell you that you need some more panels, a bigger tank and that you can add the system to your central heating plus woodburner. If this bricodepot material is the same quality, such a company would propose, I can't tell. Just hot water without any possibility to connect it to the heating system, is not enough to try to help save this planet.

Herbert, dept24

[Poolguy]

Herbert

You are wrong, the Credit impot is give only on the apparatus which produces the renewable energy.  That's what the article you linked said, thats what the act says, and that what my Mother in law says.... she is a Tax Commissioner.

If you make a claim incorrectly, from advise from these Brico's or whosoever then the Direction (Dept) have a team to analyse your claim (they know the prices) and they will come looking for a their money back - don't mess with the tax Dept, you'll regret it.

The firgure I quoted (€200) relates to the SOLAR PANEL OFFER LISTED IN THE TOPIC WHICH IS LISTED AS WORTH €398 so the rebate is worth less than 50% of that. If you purchase is a 'pomp a chaleur' the rebate would be less than 50% of it value and so on. The ancillary equipment is NOT INCLUDED, the installation is NOT INCLUDED.

If you still don't believe me then so be it, I don't care, do what you want.

Panda

Why on earth would I take the time to post on a subject I am not interested in - really!!!! Do you ?

 

Andrew

 

 

[herbert]

Hello Poolguy

The panel on its own does not produce energy at all. It will even blow off .......without being related to a pump and you have to fill the circuit with glycol and you need a tank to make it work and ....

http://www11.minefi.gouv.fr/boi/boi2009/5fppub/textes/5b1009/5b1009.pdf

salut

Herbert

[Panda]

QUOTE

Panda

Why on earth would I take the time to post on a subject I am not interested in - really!!!! Do you ? - Andrew

Andrew, we are talking not talking interest here though Andrew, we are talking business interest where the advice is always I am the only one who knows about these things.

My sugesstion was that you post on more general subjects for a change not just those that try to gain buisness for you.

On the qualified front, how are we to know whether someones qualifications are in solar or door to door selling, this is a forum where anyone can claim expert in a subject.

We all know someone I'm sure who left a job in sales or IT to take up one in a very specialist subject over in France claiming past experience, it's not difficult, doesn;t mean we all have to bow to their opinion on a forum!

[UlsterRugby1999]

Mmmmmm - why would BricoDepot sell a product in Indre (36) and the Vienne (86) if it wouldnt perform its function, as stated in the advert, of producing hot water. What is it about this system that is so bad, or at least thats how it seems to me its being portrayed. Surely they are not crass enough to believe that they could sell a system which simply wont do as it says on the tin.

I know some of you, from past posts, wouldnt touch BricoDepot with a long pole but I have seen several of their Air con systems installed and working very very well with truely happy clients.

Le Plombiere, when you say tepid shower, is that directed to me or in response to PoolGuy as I couldnt quite figure it out. If me, then why?

As for the fiscal refund, I would have believed that Kingfisher wouldnt be stupid or naive enough to believe that they can print that you will benefit from the grant if in fact you wont, especially as its being installed by a qualified tradesperson.

I nearly wish I hadnt asked the question.

Will it do the job or not. We live here in a micro-climate which, allegedly has as many sunshine hours as Toulon. So why wouldnt it work.

[Alex H]

[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"]Mmmmmm - why would BricoDepot sell a product in Indre (36) and the Vienne (86) if it wouldnt perform its function, as stated in the advert, of producing hot water. [/quote]

B&Q sell them in the UK, (that includes Wales and Scotland, probably NI as well) - not exactly over supplied with sunshine are we? [;-)]

[herbert]

of course it will work. But as already written in Bricomarche's advert,

you will possibly have to adjust the number of panels to your special configuration or when there is no or lttle sun, there is the resistance electrique d'appoint which will switch on.

Herbert

PS

But it will not help you heat the house

[Clair]

[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"]As for the fiscal refund, I would have believed that Kingfisher wouldnt be stupid or naive enough to believe that they can print that you will benefit from the grant if in fact you wont, especially as its being installed by a qualified tradesperson.[/quote]

To qualify for the 40% tax refund,

• the tubes must be certified "CSTBat" or "Solar Keymark" (source)
• the invoice must list the purchase of the goods, the certification rating (as above) and the installation costs
• the installation must be done by a registered professional

Further, the installation can qualify for a ANAH grant if the installer is registered with Qualisol (source).

[Le Plombier]

UlsterRugby, it was directed at you

You know my views on Brico Depot, I would not buy anthing from them unless it was inert such as a brick

Once you buy something with moving parts then you potentially have a problem

I would not even buy their tubes and fittings, they may be cheap and have the NF mark but they are very inferior quality

Most of the power tools they supply are throw away, they last for a period of time and then you put them in the bin as you cannot get them repaired

Ask them to prove they can supply parts for your solar system and I bet they can't do it

The boilers they sell, together with those from other bricos are generally all out of the same Itilian factory, the same boiler badged as the brico chain define, exactly the same way they operate with Chinese factories for power tools

On the subject of Credit de Impots this is applicable to the principle pieces of energy saving equipment, not the whole installation and is only claimable if the supply and installation are carried out by a registered installer

The registered installer does not have to be Qualisol registered as stated by another poster, this is simply a peice of paper issued to someone for attending a short course on the subject

The only examinable and audited qualification that exists is Qualigaz where a strict regime of audit and control is in place and you can only install gas if you are gas qualified

I install geothermie, airothermie, wood burners, solar et al and I don't have a Qualisol, Qualibois or whatever certificate and all my clients still get the cedit from the Impots

You could pay the money, do the course and get yourself a Qualisol certificate, it's that easy to do, but don't try for a gas certificate unless you are prepared to sit an exam where you have to get 26 questions correct out of a total of 30 to pass and then you have to do it all again every three years, plus cope with annual audits

Bet your Qualisol men don't have to do that

Le Plombier

[Alan Zoff]

Been said many times before, but you pay your money and take your choice. In the case of a forum like this, you pay nothing and get advice from unidentifiable, unaccountable "experts". Some of it is very good, some of it is poor, some clearly from people with vested interests.

You just have to read it with these points in mind and decide which you are prepared to trust. Applying that principle, I have certainly gained a lot of useful info from the forum, and hopefully contributed a bit as well.

By being selective, I have also picked up some very good deals at BricoDepot.

[Benjamin]

Panda

I am also becoming concerned that people with vested interests are being allowed to post spurious and erroneous content to further there own business interests. The help that many have received from the professionals on this site has no doubt been welcomed by many but the punting of certain ways of doing things and the rubbishing of any other solutions is getting a little out of hand.

There was a posting from Andrew a few days ago that gleefully told anyone that had the misfortune to use electricity that they were going "to have to pay and pay and pay". It should possibly be remembered that not everyone has a choice either because they cannot afford to change or their life expectancy is such that they will never gain any financial return from the money that they are being hectored into splashing out.

Let's try and keep a balance please and stick to provable facts.

[Théière]

I have posted this before Ben jamin,

Your signature is the correct size font but your posts are always too big, it's like your shouting.

Can you do anything to bring the font back to regular size please?

[Théière]

[quote user="Benjamin"]Panda

There was a posting from Andrew a few days ago that gleefully told anyone that had the misfortune to use electricity that they were going "to have to pay and pay and pay". It should possibly be remembered that not everyone has a choice either because they cannot afford to change or their life expectancy is such that they will never gain any financial return from the money that they are being hectored into splashing out.

Let's try and keep a balance please and stick to provable facts.

[/quote]

Is it not a proven fact that electricity prices are never comming down hence they are always going to get more expensive (investment in wind farms and de-commissioning of nuclear power stations etc)

I appreciate life expectancy and return on investment are important to the individual but that is not a general fact that would be customer specific surely?

[Panda]

Hello Teapot

You see to be answering and defending comments made by Andrew, is there a reasons for this? Do we have a forum romance, should we all go buy a hat??

The irony of your post in large letters is hilarious BTW - no really it is!

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Panda"]

The irony of your post in large letters is hilarious BTW - no really it is![/quote]

For the record and because teapot seems intent on some sort of crusade the following is the reason for his/her posting in a larger font size.

This is a fairly friendly Private Message I sent to him/her earlier this morning.

Hi teapot

I'm finding it difficult to understand

why you decided to use the forum in the middle of a thread on solar

heating to make the comment you did. Why not use the PM button if you

have some off topic comments to make please.

As far as font size

is concerned it has nothing to do with shouting or indeed whispering at

the other end of the scale. THIS IS SHOUTING and THIS IS SHOUTING VERY LOUDLY.

Can I suggest that you Google "netiquette" to see a full definition?

Have you never thought why some books are printed in larger typeface?

Have a nice day.

Benjamin

[Pierre ZFP]

Horses for courses a bit I think.

Just rough calculations, making all sorts of simplistic calculations but I reckon (and do feel free to correct)

300 l * (temp rise from 20 to 60 = 40deg C) * €0.08 per Kw = €0.96 per tankful at heures pleines, call it a euro allowing for losses

300 l * (temp rise from 20 to 60 = 40deg C) * €0.0471 per Kw = €0.565 per tankful at heures creuses, call it a 60 cents allowing for losses

so if you used a whole tank a day every day, for an installation cost of €2100 (forget the rebate if any)

it would take nearly 6 years to pay back at full rate electricity or over 9.5 years at cheap rate, by which time it may well have needed replacing (maybe not)

It's OK but not great I think and no use to me as an occasional user.

[Théière]

No Panda, No man love sorry, How are you and Ben jamin getting on?

I feel that because Andrew actually sells and installs he is being put through the mill by you and Ben jamin. As I said before the size of France and the shear cost of travel, transport of very fragile goods and accomodation do not make it a viable option to sell or attempt it from the forum unless you live close.

It is without question that Andrew has strong beliefs and does not mince his words as Alan Zoff said you have to be selective. If a fact is represented wrongly then that point maybe challenged and corrected if necessary.

That does not seem to happen, what seems more common is the "oh he has a vested interest" flag gets raised and the debate falls apart. You do not have to buy from Andrew just because he posts on a forum.

Le Plombier also has a business and knowledge and also has little faith in the Brico system.

The OP Ulsterugby1999 asked for thoughts on the Brico product, have you made a comment on the product no. You did make a comment about the system you bought (not solar) and the rebate, the rest of your postings are provocative and have not added one cent to the topic

Likewise Ben jamin, your only posting has been a criticism that people have a vested interest and are allowed to post. Not exactly joining in on the topic! Who is going off topic now?

I politely asked you if there was anything you could do re your font size? a resonable request? Your signature says it all Mr Désagréable

Thankfully PierreZFP has brought the subject back on to a reasoned debate.

[Nick Trollope]

Having dug through the recesses of my memory, I can tell you this;

The energy required to heat 300L of water by 40 degrees is;

4.2Joules / Kg /degree C

Which works out to 50,4MJ/300L/40deg

or

14KwH

I reckon that I can speak as an expert on the subject I am trained in and I don't hide behind psueds...

I have long maintaind that you can't justify "eco" systems on price alone. However, we are all responsible for you-know-what, so we must all try to do something "green". Given that water heating is the single largest consumer of energy (during the summer) then solar energy is an appropriate thing to be punting.