Oil Fuel Cantral Heating

[barneysfriends]

Friends have been offered a boiler/burner at a bargain price in the UK. Is it true that the domestic fuel oil in France is different to that in UK and therefore not a good idea? Isnt oil, oil, whatever country you are in?

[andyh4]

[quote user="barneysfriends"]

Friends have been offered a boiler/burner at a bargain price in the UK. Is it true that the domestic fuel oil in France is different to that in UK [/quote]

Yes - English fuel is basically paraffin, French is diesel

 

[quote user="barneysfriends"]

and therefore not a good idea? [/quote]

Good idea if they can get  the correct burner for diesel

[quote user="barneysfriends"]

Isnt oil, oil, whatever country you are in?[/quote]  No, No No.

Olive oil is not rape seed oil is not walnut oil.

Likewise Texan light crude is not Venzuelan heavy crude is not Brent crude

And paraffin is most certainly not diesel.  They are extracted from the refining process at different temeratures, have different viscocities and burning characteristics.  Think of it like Petrol and diesel for your car.  Now you wouldn't put petrol in a diesel car would you?  Well not twice anyway[6]

[Gluestick]

[quote]Now you wouldn't put petrol in a diesel car would you?  Well not twice anyway[/quote]

Excellent way to launch a cylinder head into geosynchronous orbit!

And even the odd piston!

 

[:D]

[AnOther]

Leaving aside the potential for launching low orbit satellites bringing a UK boiler to France is a seriously bad idea whatever the price as it will be a liability on just about every front:

First and foremost it will not conform to French standards which in turn could put a big question mark over your house insurance, especially so if you have fitted it yourself or have it done 'on the black', which you will of course have to because no legitimate French artisan will touch it.

You will have great difficulty selling the property in the future if you wanted or needed to. Would you buy a house in UK with some weird nondescript, non conforming French boiler installed ?

Mostly French systems use red diesel which your 'bargain' boiler will almost certainly not be able to accommodate. I believe kerosene is available but at a much higher price but even than it may not be suitable for it either without modification.

Nobody will be able to service it and spares will be impossible to obtain.

...................need I go on ?

The few quid they might save on the purchase price will quickly be wiped out - and more.

[Le Plombier]

UK 28 second fuel oil

France 35 second fuel oil

Burner fuel pump configured in France for supply and return, UK normally single pipe supply only

Boiler would prossibly not be big enough, you tend to have much lager boilers here

You also need to check the pressure rating et al

My advice buy one locally

Le Plombier 

[BIG MAC]

And on an unrelated note petrol in a diesel car is a handy pre-MOT trick ....just about half a gallon to a half tank.....could get your old Tranny van through the emmissions test! (Allegedly)

[Gluestick]

Last time I checked, one can fit an oil boiler and all the associated system: and simply ask the oil supplier to set it up, calibrate (as they would for an annual service) and provide un facture, certifying same..

All quite acceptable.

Not so with gas boilers however and of course.

[BIG MAC]

Lots of the larger boilers are European (Italian mainly) in any case and will take a number of burners which bricos quite often stock. If memory serves Noz were flogging some lamborghini burners last year for 150 something €'s

[Poolguy]

Why not put all that complication and expence aside and install Solar instead?

Its the same sun for everyone and the price for the energy is the same forever....... nothing!

Andrew

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="Poolguy"]Its the same sun for everyone and the price for the energy is the same forever....... nothing![/quote]Neatly forgetting the mega cost of installing something adequate to keep you toasty in the deep dark depths of a French winter of course [Www]

[Poolguy]

SO Ernie

You are are obviously comparing the cost of installing an adequate solar system to the FREE oil fired system, which is FREE to run for ever more.... gee wiz I havn't heard of that one....  please tell me more.

Andrew

 

[La Guerriere]

For those of us in Normandy, what we really need is a central heating system that runs economically on either rain or possibly grass cuttings. I have been contemplating a bit of solar to create warmish water, but my roof doesn't really point the right way. I may consider rotating the house at some point if the cost of electricity continues to rise.

[Gluestick]

The sun's strength and level of radiation is just the same at ground level as at roof height, La G.

Hopefully, with increasing focus on renewables, "Soft" technology and green energy, shortly, Solar Arrays for ground mounting which use servo-motors to continually orient the array, will become both cheaper, affordable and more common.

The old reality of manufacturing: cost falls as volume rises.

 

[AnOther]

No need for the sarcasm Andrew, just that you make it sound like a complete no brainer which, if it were the case, would overnight put every traditional boiler manufacturer out of business.

So what would be the ballpark cost of a solar system capable of comfortably heating a reasonably well insulated 4 bed house then, turnkey job, signed, sealed, and delivered ?

Go on, sell it to me, I am genuinely interested. Bear in mind though that I already have an adequate oil sytem which costs me around €1000/pa to feed plus an annual service of about €180 and although I have no plans to die in the next few years I would at least like to live until at least payback [:D]

[RicandJo]

I love these 'discussions'.

And I'm firmly in the 'initial installation cost outrageously high' camp!

Ready for incoming

[Poolguy]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

So what would be the ballpark cost of a solar system capable of comfortably heating a reasonably well insulated 4 bed house then, turnkey job, signed, sealed, and delivered ?

Go on, sell it to me, I am genuinely interested. Bear in mind though that I already have an adequate oil sytem which costs me around €1000/pa to feed plus an annual service of about €180 and although I have no plans to die in the next few years I would at least like to live until at least payback [:D]

[/quote]

Sorry to disappoint Ernie but 'no can do'.

Not just that its against forum rules but specific projects have to be priced on their specific characteristics - so a survey needs to be done on your home and your 'wish list' in advance to determine how the system is designed.

The individual prices are available on the website if it helps you but the problem is that a 'standard' configuration can vary up to 50% in price from a specific installation and so its of no use to anyone to throw any figures around. If you are 'genuinely interested' then you'll need to send me your details and we start the study.

Problem is, that I'm not going to offer you 'a pay back' figure as I don't think that its possible to calculate a number which means anything. Also, I don't think it is the reason to buy solar either, but that's a personal view and I am sure that someone will try to sell it on that basis, but not me.

So just to summarise... yes its a no brainier when you see what it can do, and yes I believe (and hope) that the oil boiler makers will all go out of business, but I don't suppose I'll see that in my lifetime.

Andrew

[Gluestick]

[quote user="RicandJo"]I love these 'discussions'. And I'm firmly in the 'initial installation cost outrageously high' camp! Ready for incoming[/quote]

As Andrew knows, I am a very keen supporter of alternative, renewable and "Soft" technologies: and know a little about these areas, due to my commercial involvement in technology.

All that said, however, since I am by professional discipline an accountant, who has spent much of my professional life involved in Project and Cost Accounting, I tend to analyse any putative project, capitally, using such tools as Risk:Reward and Cost-Benefit analyses: and expected Amortization Tables, based upon what is called the DCF model (Discounted Cash Flow).

Early on, I carried out for my wife and my French house, a fairly in-depth analysis of the optional methodologies for Central Heating (CH) and Domestic Hot Water (DHW) provision.

Unfortunately, it became immediately apparent, that such as Ground Source Heating could only prove beneficial if and when this employed Underfloor Heating: a wholly unrealistic proposition with an older and well established property: due to the cost and dislocation of ripping out existing flooring and having to replace desirable extant tiled floors.

Solar Heating was simply not a viable option, owing to the Northern location.

Finally, on simple grounds of personal age, any potential Payback Curve (And such excluded both capital investment obsolecense and ongoing maintenance costs, as there was not sufficient credible data available, empirically, from which to extrapolate probable costs), was impossible: unless medical science improves fairly dramatically during the next ten years!

As a matter of interest, the "Winner" was Wood Gasification: all provided certain implementational problems might be overcome.

Wood is of course a renewable resource, and the boilers as well as achieving enviable efficiency, are also rated as low in environmentally damaging emissions.

Capital costs, however, are significantly higher than an equivalent oil-fired system: and whilst yes, the price of Red Diesel has risen dramatically from the circa 30 cents/litre level of five years ago, then so has wood!

And since more and more French fiscally resident people are installing approved wood burners, fuel costs can be expected to escalate still further.

And then, compared to a simple double-skinned (i.e. fully self-bunded) oil cuve there is the necessity of considerable storage space: at added cost; since to obtain the best possible costs on cut aged wood, the best source for us, is apparently the Ardennes.

Watch this space!

 

[BIG MAC]

Renewable energy fascinates me and I haven't forgotten some advice I got from Mr Poolguy...I  have been hit by a couple of setbacks not least the builder going bust and our buying another house in UK.....Enough of us though.

My thinking re solar is it's a good if pricey thing to install however unless I intend to live in one house forever then the system enhances the value and appeal of the property so you may get your dosh back that way.

Combustion appliances can be a pain in the hoop to maintain and you likely to be at the mercy of energy suppliers (Even Pierre the woodman)

Noticed Honda are now launching mainstream hybrids and guess in ten years all manufacturers will have them.

Operating on the very basic premise that technology, competition and volume of sales drives down cost and increases reliability etc. then in vehicle terms in 20 years we have gone from diesel electric locomotives to diesel electric cars. I suspect that in the next ten to fifteen years it will become mandatory throughout Europe that all new builds will have solar, this may be the time for the long haul strategists to invest in it. Me if I could afford solar for the French house now...it would be going in...no question about it. 

[AnOther]

Oh come off it Andrew, forum rules, what a cop out - mods please give him a slap [:P]

Nobody is asking for a quote nor are you touting for business, we're simply discussing the relative costs of solar, for which you seem to be an uncompromising advocate, versus oil/fossil fuel fired systems. It's a topic I'm sure a goodly number are extremely interested in and I find it hard to believe that you cannot, or rather will not, even chuck a couple of numbers into the ring. It diminishes your credibility for me I'm afraid [:'(]

Glueys point about underfloor heating being a necessary and integral part of such a project is well made I think and conversion from radiators is not a practical option for me, never mind the capital cost.

I cannot speak for others but if you really cannot give us something to chew on I'm afraid I'll have little choice but to draw my own conclusions.

[BIG MAC]

That's the thing Ernie you are master of your own conclusions as you are your Bank account!

I suspect Mr Poolguy's reticence is born of not wanting to being drawn into an infinity of imponderables and technobabble and of a desire to talk specifics. I asked Poolguy a question (Off line) and got succint and precise answers including the painful fiscal truth.

Rather than project wooly figures it may be that our friend would like the opportunity to present costs in a fashion whereby he can discuss value as distinct from cost?

I don't know categorically but seems reasonable to me.

"Knows the price of everything and the value of nothing" Deacon Blue........ 

[Gluestick]

For various reasons, a short time ago, I did a pretty in-depth appraisal of the Cost-Benefit of wind power.

It became rapidly obvious, that without serious subsidies, it was presently non-viable.

I feel that in most cases, reliance on solar heating (Not DHW) is presently in the same position.

What will drive a more rapid roll-out will be subsidy: plus, as has been already stated, mandatory regulations on new buildings.

In all but areas which enjoy far above levels of sun, heating by solar (with no thermal store), then buildings essential require some form of additional heat input.

Indeed, some time back, I reported on this forum, the experiences of a friend, who had used the remnants of a Welsh barn for what was in reality a new build project: with underfloor heating provided by Ground Source, using boreholes. Despite seriously efficient and copious insulation, during colder periods it is necessary for him to use his woodburner: particularly in Winter evenings.

He's an engineer: and probably more focused on absolute thermal efficiency than primary cost: and whilst he is obviously saving some serious cash, in terms of electricity running costs compared to any other form of heat production, capital costs and thus amortization have not been considered.

One of the major concerns, of course, is life expectancy of the heat pump: and the associated equipment.

There is, as yet, no body of empirical data of any real credibility: other than manufacturers projections of expected time to failure: which must be taken with a shovelfull of salt, probably!

 

 

[BIG MAC]

I can confirm that Poolguy did spend a long time explaining to me how it was vital to have an adequate thermal store and that cheapie ones are not the way to go. If memory serves I think we were talking about a 3,000 litre Finnish built unit which is a bit pricey but the benefits are clear.

[Poolguy]

My thanks to Big Mac for defending my corner whilst I had a much needed weekend 'decompress'.

Ernie is busting for number so that he can make a call to go or to bust.

Gluestick has done buckets of numbers but can't find a conclusion (I do like his choice of Gasification, I'm about to do that here)

I've done both of those things and one thing more.....

Here is my imperical proof that Solar can be used for heating.... Its in my home and its been heating pretty well alone since the beginning of February.

www.poolguyenergy.com

That will bring up the question of 'The Gap'  (there will be more on that when you've done you homework.. click above and check out a few dates in Feb and March and see how they look to you).

Andrew

[Le Plombier]

Gluestick

The heat pump manufacturer that I use for geothermie installations has heat pumps that have been installed and running for 30 years

Coupled with zero maintainance that's pretty good for reliability

Mind you all this manufacturer makes is heat pumps and they have tremendous experience in the design, performance and operation of this type of equipment.

It's just a question of research and picking the right equipment.

Le Plombier

[AnOther]

[quote user="Poolguy"]

My thanks to Big Mac for defending my corner whilst I had a much needed weekend 'decompress'.

Ernie is busting for number so that he can make a call to go or to bust.

Gluestick has done buckets of numbers but can't find a conclusion (I do like his choice of Gasification, I'm about to do that here)

I've done both of those things and one thing more.....

Here is my imperical proof that Solar can be used for heating.... Its in my home and its been heating pretty well alone since the beginning of February.

www.poolguyenergy.com

That will bring up the question of 'The Gap'  (there will be more on that when you've done you homework.. click above and check out a few dates in Feb and March and see how they look to you).

Andrew

[/quote]Glad you've 'decompressed' [:)]

Impressive charts which I'm sorry to say mean pretty well zilch to me [:$]