Re: Freezing Pipes and etc:

[Gluestick]

Just back from la belle and a week's break; which turned out to be rather unpleasant!

So my neighbour informed me, the temp dropped to as low as minus 12 for a few days: and the really cold period lasted for more than two weeks!

I expected the odd fuite or two: but not to have to replumb the ballon......................

Still, all done now and a nice new stand since the original (Despite being a Leroy-Merlin job was nasty and unsafe): OK, I know that the ballon is rawbolted into a good brick wall and that the main load is in sheer on hefty steel bolts, however, the cradle is a good comfort zone. Rawbolts have been know to pull out of walls when the mortar ages!

And 200 litres of eau and the tare weight of the ballon is not light.

A cautionary tale.

When "Winterising" a property to be left for a period, take the shower head, lower it into the shower tray and turn on the feed, once the main water riser is isolated and leave the feed cockle on the ballon on too.

Why?

Because my shower had captured water in the thermostatic valve, which exerted so much force in the brass casting, as it froze,  it propelled the cylinder forward, breaking off a retaining grub screw and somehow detaching the adjustment spindle from the inner valve!

Having dismantled the shower (A cabin thingy from Leroy: never ever again!!) and isolated both feeds, I dismantled the whole valve assembly and have brought it back to UK for repair. I shall have to drill out the broken grub screw on the pillar drill and see how I go from there.

I'm glad to go back to work today!

 

[Pierre ZFP]

That's very interesting - I mean I do sympathise with your woes.  I was quite expecting similar probs as I am in the same area as you and after the unusually cold snap I was imagining burst pipes.  I had installed a couple of flat panal heaters (only 100 watt) in strategic places with timer switches to come on about 10 hours a day.  This seems to have worked and I had no problems EXCEPT the shower.  I think we discussed this previously and  I  think we both have the same type shower cabinet from L-M  (I agree, never, ever again).   My shower still works, well, it will give you a refreshing COLD shower.

Guess what I will be dismantaling this weekend,  I'm hoping it's just a bit of something blocking the hot feed but I doubt it somehow,  I still have to take the cabinet apart to get to the pipes anyway.

 

[Gluestick]

The problem with my shower valve assembly, Pierre, (Same as yours as we ascertained earlier) is, I fear, that the thermostatic bit is lower than the On-Off and Distribution bit (That sends water to either the shower head or the reasonably pointless "Hydromassage" nozzles).

Which means that the standing water is trapped in the thermostatic valve housing with no way to drain it.

So I am going to try and invert the valve assembly, so that the feed to the shower head is at the bottom.

Next time, it's a stud wall with Breton Cellulaire, a ceramic tray on't floor, tiled throughout and a standard width thermostatic tubular valve assembly!

And no silly pointless side jets, either.

Much cheaper and easier to clean too.

[:D]

[Jo]

I've just come back from organising the replacement of 5 cast iron radiators that blew during the cold snap, despite having some electric heaters left on timer[:(] Black gunge everywhere[+o(]

[Lambkin]

Gluestick, my shower did EXACTLY the same thing while I was away over new year. Not being technical I rang a plumber, sorted in no time but I nearly fell through the floor when he gave me bill for over 200 euros (of which not much was labour, it was the cost of the new thingy).

He said turning the shower 'on' after turning the water off will let the water drain and stop it happening again, do you think not? I would really like to not have to pay out 200 euros every time it turns cold when I'm not here.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Jo"]I've just come back from organising the replacement of 5 cast iron radiators that blew during the cold snap, despite having some electric heaters left on timer[:(] Black gunge everywhere[+o(]
[/quote]

Ouch!

Expensive. With wet central heating (and solar systems) one should always add anti-corrosion/anti-freeze solution to the system.

http://www.heatandplumb.com/acatalog/Fernox_Alphi_11_Antifreeze.html

A severe freeze can rupture the boiler core: which would prove even more disastrously expensive.

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Lambkin"]Gluestick, my shower did EXACTLY the same thing while I was away over new year. Not being technical I rang a plumber, sorted in no time but I nearly fell through the floor when he gave me bill for over 200 euros (of which not much was labour, it was the cost of the new thingy). He said turning the shower 'on' after turning the water off will let the water drain and stop it happening again, do you think not? I would really like to not have to pay out 200 euros every time it turns cold when I'm not here.[/quote]

Turning the shower "On" and leaving the shower head as low as possible in the tray will allow the static water in the valves to gradually drop out.

Also, it does allow some expansion space in the pipes.

My trouble was that the thermostatic valve sits beneath the On-Off valve: and the water exit (to the shower head) is from the On-Off block.

So the thermostatic housing will always contain quite a bit of water: hopefully, leaving the flow valve open should provide sufficient expansion space.

I am going to try and invert the two valves as part of the repair.

Water which turns to ice expands by up to 9%, so my valve had to have been full prior to freezing.

 

[nectarine]

If you vidange a property, and drain out all the water, do remember the little bit in the toilet bowl. I had wet-vacced the cistern and every thing else but left the water in the toilet bowl thinking that it would form a 'seal' to prevent noxious gases coming up from the sewer. WRONG!!! When we returned in the spring the toilet had, literally, exploded. The bowl had cracked in several places and was all over the room, the seat was a yard or so away .... must have been a heck of a sight when it happened.

[Jo]

Not amusing for you at all and you have my sympathy, but I would SO have paid to see that happen[:-))][:-))][:-))]

[Pierre ZFP]

My plan is to take the shower apart and investigate.  If it is something easily repairable (some hope) I'll do it but I think I will be buying the simplest mixer tap I can find and cobbling it in somehow.

[Chancer]

I have just returned from my first trip this year to my pied à terre in England, I had turned off but not drained the water and was not overly concerned when I heard the rush of water filling the chasse d'eau, after several minutes I reflected that my macerator doesnt have one.

I had by then flood waters coming at me from all directions, it took me a week to trace and repair all 10 of the pipe ruptures and the second week drying out, replacing cloisons, redcorating etc.

I have now fitted drain cocks but after using £50 of electricity keeping the chill of a very small (around 30m2) but well insulated building for two weeks  i cannot contemplate leaving the heating on all winter.

I too had a ruptured plastic casting in my shower cabinet, it was on the valve for the (now redundant) massage jets.

Th main house en revanche still has an exposed and uninsulated outside copper pipe feeding the garden tap, this froze as usual but has never burst in 22 years. They dont make cipper pipe like they used too!

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]My plan is to take the shower apart and investigate.  If it is something easily repairable (some hope) I'll do it but I think I will be buying the simplest mixer tap I can find and cobbling it in somehow.[/quote]

Well, I shall try and dissemble the original valve this weekend.

It is made by Tab, who apparently are an Italian manufacturer.

The trick is going to be obtaining spares I fear.

So Plan B would be to fit something like this instead:

http://www.trueshopping.co.uk/product/Trueshopping_Twin_Control_Thermostatic_Shower_Valve/2399/37660.html

And Plan C would be to fit a tube type (Lidl when available: circa £24, five year guarantee, excellent quality for the money) and make up some plastic washers which space the angle straight, as the width of a tube valve, of course, goes between the flat back and encroaches onto the sides which angle back towards you.

I would then make up a white plastic blanking sheet to cover the two holes in the oblong recess where the original valve and two rotary controls fitted.

What I should do is to throw the whole bloody thing away!

Too mean: in five years it's only been used for weeks here and there.

Of course, I might find that the wax capsule is the same as a rad TRV................................................

 

[Pierre ZFP]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

 

What I should do is to throw the whole bloody thing away!  Me too!!

Too mean: in five years it's only been used for weeks here and there.  Me too!!

[/quote]

I think I may well be going for your Plan C and get a cheapy mixer tap from somewhere and blank everything else off

 

[andyh4]

[quote user="nectarine"]If you vidange a property, and drain out all the water, do remember the little bit in the toilet bowl. I had wet-vacced the cistern and every thing else but left the water in the toilet bowl thinking that it would form a 'seal' to prevent noxious gases coming up from the sewer. WRONG!!! When we returned in the spring the toilet had, literally, exploded. The bowl had cracked in several places and was all over the room, the seat was a yard or so away .... must have been a heck of a sight when it happened.[/quote]

 

If you are not on fosse septique you can pour bleach (Javal) into the bowl - lots.  It will drop the freezing point considerably.  I have winterised this way and the house was subjected to prolonged -8 and below with no adverse effects.

[Pierre ZFP]

And if you are on a fosse wouldn't a couple of handfuls of salt do the same thing?  It would lower the freezing point to nearly -20 deg C and that amount would make no difference to the fosse.  Maybe sugar would work the same?

[Pierre ZFP]

Well it looks like I won't be doing much DIY for a couple of weeks after all due to a bizzare and unfortunate accident on my part (stupid, stupid, stupid).  On the plus side, I may be able to learn from Gluey's investigations of his shower tap if he would be so kind as to share the info - please

[Cacknanty]

We do the salt thing after having had a toilet crack. Not sure about the affect on the fosse, I probably won't bother sticking my head in it to see if the beasties are still eating the goo. How do you tell ?

Also blow compressed air down a tap while running around opening and closing other taps on the same 'circuit'. We'll find out at Easter how successful this has been. In the past we've usually had at least two waterfalls.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]Well it looks like I won't be doing much DIY for a couple of weeks after all due to a bizzare and unfortunate accident on my part (stupid, stupid, stupid).  On the plus side, I may be able to learn from Gluey's investigations of his shower tap if he would be so kind as to share the info - please[/quote]

Check your PMs, Pierre!

Already suggested by moi, old chap.

[:)]

Hope you are OK though? Nothing too serious?

I went pell mell into my plumbing escapades despite having undergone my second Carpal Tunnel Op (Left Hand) only just over four weeks ago..........

"Do not use a full grip for at least 6-8 weeks.............." is the advice on the discharge brochure.

So probably, pulling hard on two large adjustables to wind up large manchon nuts was not the best concept since sliced bread.

[8-)]

I am suffering now for my excessive enthusiam.

[blink]

[Pierre ZFP]

Thank you for your concern, not serious, just bizzare.

Went 10 pin bowling last night, great fun, doing well and right near the end of the evening, I picked up a blue ball but not the one I had been using all evening. This one had much smaller finger holes and I didn't notice.  Let fly at the pins and my fat middle finger stayed in the 'ole.  Honestly I thought my finger had come off [+o(] . When my so-called 'Mates' had wiped the tears of laughter from their eyes,  they got me a large cold beer to wrap my hand around.  So, this morning, I decided that my finger shouldn't be at a funny angle and probably shouldn't be turning black.  Nipped around the corner to the emergency department at the hospital to see the Penguins, err I mean Nuns of the medical order of St. Something.  Was seen by a brilliant doctor Nun who with a quick twist and CLUNK snapped it back into place. A  momentary intake of breath and stars before the eyes (I was good, I remembered where I was and didn't swear) and hey presto, all is well.  Was advised not to do anything too physical for a while so my DIY can wait until next weekend.

[andyh4]

Thanks for the hint Pierre, I'm going bowling this evening!!  And in Germany it's not nuns, it's large men who look as if their grandfathers could have been high ups in the SS!

[Gluestick]

Ouch! [:'(]

Bit like the old cartoon (Flintstones??) where the player goes bouncing down the lane attached irretrievably to the ball.

Hope it's soon better.

[:)]

[Théière]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]

Thank you for your concern, not serious, just bizzare.

Went 10 pin bowling last night, great fun, doing well and right near the end of the evening, I picked up a blue ball but not the one I had been using all evening. This one had much smaller finger holes and I didn't notice.  Let fly at the pins and my fat middle finger stayed in the 'ole.  Honestly I thought my finger had come off [+o(] . When my so-called 'Mates' had wiped the tears of laughter from their eyes,  they got me a large cold beer to wrap my hand around.  So, this morning, I decided that my finger shouldn't be at a funny angle and probably shouldn't be turning black.  Nipped around the corner to the emergency department at the hospital to see the Penguins, err I mean Nuns of the medical order of St. Something.  Was seen by a brilliant doctor Nun who with a quick twist and CLUNK snapped it back into place. A  momentary intake of breath and stars before the eyes (I was good, I remembered where I was and didn't swear) and hey presto, all is well.  Was advised not to do anything too physical for a while so my DIY can wait until next weekend.

[/quote]

You could have pulled yourself together [:D]

[Chancer]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"][/quote]

[:)]

So probably, pulling hard on two large adjustables to wind up large manchon nuts was not the best concept since sliced bread.

[8-)]

I am suffering now for my excessive enthusiam.

[blink]

[/quote]

That is exactly what I was doing when I suffered my 4th, final and terminal detached retina, similar discharge advice "avoid all efforts", the first 2 recidives were due to not understanding the French meaning of this, ie "do absolutely nothing for 3 months, that is what your wife is for n'est ce pas?" (I am single).

[Gluestick]

Trouble with me, JR, is that having been no stranger to hoiking heavy bits of kits around and yanking hard on large spanners and such for years, I still think I'm 30................

I well remember crashing through a dry-rotted Victorian- Edwardian floor in a flat renovation in 1976: right up to my crutch.

The A & E consultant, a charming Indian gent instructed me " Your are now going home and resting for two weeks until you leg recovers!"

I was trussed up in a support bandage from ankle to upper thigh: entered my car, lifted my left leg in with my hands, planted it on the clutch and repaired straight to the flat; put my overauls on and carried on installing the heating pipes by the simple expedient of falling onto my ar$e like a baby, and dragging myself around!

The feed and return susyem whilst now converted to a combi system (We still own this as investment), still enjoys integrity, 33 years later.

So sorry you suffered that.

I am (apparently) pre-disposed genetically, and after other contributary causes for the same: so every few years I have an exhaustive private occular examination.

I do hope you are managing OK now, since I know your project is a huge one for a bloke by himself.

 

[Jo]

So those cylindrical mixer taps in Lidl are thermostatic? You can set the temperature to come on at the same temp every time? I am looking for a simple one for my shower but just assumed that the Lidl ones were just mixers. Thought the price was too good to be thermostatic ones! Or, since it's a subject I don't understand very well, have I got totally the wrong end of the stick[8-)]