parsnips

[quote user="Flossy"]Is there a Notaires Ombudsman in France? My husband and I have just been to see 2 different Notaires to have a Communaute Universalle (French Marriage) drawn up, so that if one partners dies the other partner inherits the house. Then after both partners die the children inherit the house. The first Notaire quoted 1,000 euro and the second Notaire quoted 2,200 euro. Can anyone advise me if they can make up these figures, or is there a standard charge for this contract. Thanks[/quote] Hi,        Changing to the com. universelle can be expensive where a house is already owned -as I understand it there are registration fees etc.   However , such a large difference seems to imply that one notaire is overcharging ; you could complain to the local "chambre des notaires" , or you could take the lower quote , which seems quite reasonable.

[quote user="bixy"]Many thanks for those reassuring replies. We received an avis for €2000+. I sent the avis back, realising what they had done wrong and after several phone calls they eventually sent an amended avis of some €450+, WHICH WAS STILL WRONG. It was only when we went to pay at the tresorerie that the official pointed out the correct figure of about €150 - quite a difference to the original. Unfortunately our local tax office is populated by the most discourteous, unhelpful, disagreeable, incompetent people it's been my misfortune to meet in France. We dread having to go anywhere near them. It seems that this is not generally true of tax people. Friends in a neighbouring department say that their tax officials are extremely helpful. The reason I asked the question is that I was worried about making a mistake again next year, but it seems the mistake was theirs, not mine. Anyway, once again, thanks for the reassurance. Patrick [/quote] Hi,     Given that your tax office is as you describe , if you have future problems , I repeat my advice that you should only communicate with them in writing/email.   That way they have to put their, possibly erroneous, views in writing which you can use in any appeals to higher authority.

[quote user="bixy"]For the second year in succession my tax has been messed up and I don't know if it's me or the tax office. Our tax affairs are quite simple - just our pensions and a bit of savings interest. I wonder if someone can enlighten me where I (or they) are going wrong. On form 2047 I put our pensions under 'Pensions, retraites, rentes' on the first page, and then enter the UK taxable part in section VI 'Revenus imposables etc.... On form 2042 I enter the amounts under 1AS and 1BS and then the part of 1AS/BS which has been subject to UK tax at 8TK. What seems to have happened is that the tax people have added the two amounts at 1AS/BS and 8TK together rather than recognising that one is part of the other. Any help with this much appreciated. Patrick [/quote] Hi,    What you did was exactly right; unfortunately your form was dealt with by one of the numpties with whom the french tax service is lavishly supplied.  You can either go to the office to complain, or better, email.   You can also now make a reclamation on line -even if you didn't declare on line .   Did you actually pay any tax , or is the increased "revenu de reference " the problem. 

[quote user="Debra"][quote user="parsnips"]Married , the survivor can take the usufruit option,  PACSed the survivor can be left the usufruit in a will, unmarried the survivor cannot take the usufruit , or , in the presence of step-children , be left more than the "quotité disponible", in this case 1/4 of the deceased's half of the property.[/quote]To be clear though, isn't this done via that donation to your spouse thing where you each give the other usufruit on your own half of the property, rather than by willing the usufruit or the spouse choosing to take it rather than 10%, which isn't actually possible when there are children from a prior marriage?  (I got the impression that the usufruit had been willed directly, which I though wouldn't be possible whether married or not.) [/quote] Hi,     Normally following the latest reform, a surviving spouse can opt for the usufruit of all the deceased's assets; however ,in the presence of step children , the couple can arrange for this to be available either by a "donation entre époux" (if there are children on one side only , a single "one-way" donation will suffice), or by testament. Although all the assets can be taken in usufruit , only the deceased's "quotité disponible " can be donated or willed , in the presence of step children.

[quote user="Debra"][quote user="parsnips"]Married , the survivor can take the usufruit option,  PACSed the survivor can be left the usufruit in a will, unmarried the survivor cannot take the usufruit , or , in the presence of step-children , be left more than the "quotité disponible", in this case 1/4 of the deceased's half of the property.[/quote]To be clear though, isn't this done via that donation to your spouse thing where you each give the other usufruit on your own half of the property, rather than by willing the usufruit or the spouse choosing to take it rather than 10%, which isn't actually possible when there are children from a prior marriage?  (I got the impression that the usufruit had been willed directly, which I though wouldn't be possible whether married or not.) [/quote] Hi,     Normally following the latest reform, a surviving spouse can opt for the usufruit of all the deceased's assets; however ,in the presence of step children , the couple can arrange for this to be available either by a "donation entre époux" (if there are children on one side only , a single "one-way" donation will suffice), or by testament. Although all the assets can be taken in usufruit , only the deceased's "quotité disponible " can be donated or willed , in the presence of step children.

[quote user="Debra"]Even so, married or not, I didn't think it was possible to take the usufruit option when there are reserved inheritor children from a prior marriage.  So it seems to me that the notaire is taking that view and saying that as she owns more than half of the property then they can't force her to sell it (you need to own more than two thirds to do that) but that she will have to pay them rent for their 3/4 of their father's half.[/quote] Hi,      Married , the survivor can take the usufruit option,  PACSed the survivor can be left the usufruit in a will, unmarried the survivor cannot take the usufruit , or , in the presence of step-children , be left more than the "quotité disponible", in this case 1/4 of the deceased's half of the property.

[quote user="nectarine"]A friend is in a difficult situation. Not married, partner died, his kids came on the scene and demanded their share. They owned half the house each. Their wills allowed the survivor to live in the house and enjoy it until their death, after which the first-deceased's share passed through to his family. The notaire says "oh yes, usufruit, you can live in the property until you die but you have to pay his family some rental for their portion of the house that you are occupying". This is only a summary, and I only have some sketchy facts, although I have given her the details of an English speaking notaire that we have used who seems to be on the ball. But my main question is: does the right to continue to live in a house carry, with it, an obligation to pay rent ? Surely usufruit means you have an absolute enjoyment of the house and the eventual inheritors just have to sit it out and wait until you pop your clogs? Sorry can't give more details as it is all sketchy, but all advice and thoughts welcome, particularly if anybody has been through this already. Many thanks.[/quote] Hi,    Without more detail it's not possible to give a definite answer.   If she has inherited the usufruit of the deceased unmarried partner's half , she would have had succession tax to pay on it at 60% -she would have noticed that , I'm sure, and there would not have been any justification for demanding rent.   The situation the notaire has described is that which exists when two parties share a house in "indivision" , each owning half , in which case the children are entitled to rent on half the house.   Was the will a french one or english?  It doesn't seem to me that she has a "usufruit" in the full legal sense.       But as I say , more info is needed.   Hopefully your" on the ball" notaire will sort it out.      I would be interested to hear the final outcome. PS.  Just read OP's last post.   Even more confused now.  What is described looks like a PACS where the house was held in "indivision" and each partner had made a will giving the "occupation gratuite et attribution préférentielle " to the survivor  .  See here; www.infopacs.fr/pacs-succession-logement.html If this is the case then no rent would be due to the step-children.  The notaire would then seem  to be mistaken.

[quote user="Loiseau"]Paul, I think your second para should start "Our FRENCH will..." I have done both, and had the experience you describe re the relative cost. But my french one was very basic, and just leaves my meagre French property and anything in bank account to my daughter. The UK one also involved step children and issue, too, so was potentially more complicated. It's important to start either will with a phrase about how it concerns only one's assets in ......... Angela[/quote] Hi,     If,, as I assume you are UK resident then the only asset that should pass under the french will be  french real estate.   See article 4 of  the treaty here; www.ambafrance-uk.org/Treaty-Inheritance-tax.html only physical bank notes are deemed to be sited in the country where they are at the time of death.

[quote user="woolybanana"]Nowadays, notaires register wills with some central place to avoid fraud and confusion. There is also a formula of words which is used that is clear and legal. Of course, you can leave a handwritten bit of paper on the kitchen table too, but what would happen if someone challenged it? [/quote] Hi,  The OP said it is "lodged " with the notaire as part of his dossier..

[quote user="NormanH"]To ease the new 30 year rule, an place since February, the new Government is introducing an extra 20% allowance 'abattement' to be set against the ccalculation of plus value http://www.lefigaro.fr/impots/2012/09/14/05003-20120914ARTFIG00877-un-geste-fiscal-pour-les-residences-secondaires.php [/quote] Hi,    It seems this is to be a temporary (1 year?) measure as the article mentions a "window" for the high tax payers to continue to benefit from the "prelevement fofaitaire" of 19% plus the 20%  next year only.  After that it seems there may be further reforms to encourage the low tax payers to sell. 

[quote user="joidevie"]Hello all.. Last year it was recommended to me to lodge a 'testament' with my Notaire 'leaving' my house with to person of my choice in the event of my death to avoid any great tax burdens.. This amounted to no more than a hand written piece of paper where I wrote to whom it should go to (with the contents). The Notaire dictated to me what to write and it is now in my 'dossier'.. More recently I have been drafting a UK will and my solicitor is not entirely impressed with the document as it is merely a 'statement' (the paper itself is not even 'signed' by the Notaire himself, though he did witness my writing it).. Is this type of 'testament' (or will) indeed completely 'valid'? And in UK law too? Many thanks in advance for any help on this.. [/quote] Hi,      I assume you are not french resident, so the only property covered by french succession law is your house.  If the paper you signed is all in your own handwriting and dated and signed by you , it constitutes a valid "holograph" will which is legal for the disposal of your french house only , in the event of your death.  If the notaire had signed it ,it would not have been valid.  Your UK will should contain a phrase to the effect that it revokes all previous dispositions for your assets in england and wales , but NOT your french will dealing with your property at   ..........  . If you wish to change the french will , all you need do is write another in the same format as the existing one , take or send it to the notaire and ask him to return the first one to you (to be sure it is destroyed).   Your UK solicitor is probably "unimpressed " by this will , because he is unfamiliar with french succession law.

[quote user="idun"]Parsnips, I have to say that I am currently unwell, and have tried to read it, but that ambafrance treaty is making no sense to me at all. In fact that is the worst sort of english, and absolutely incomprehensible to me. I shall look at it later. [/quote] Hi,   This is the relevant section; "2. Where a person was at the time of his death domiciled in some part of Great Britain duty shall not be imposed in France on any property not situated in France; and in determining the amount or rate of duty payable on any property which is chargeable in France, any property not situated in France shall be disregarded." I think that's reasonably clear.  Hope you're better soon.

[quote user="rico"]Could anyone please tell me what tax implications there would be on inheriting a lump sum from the sale of a house in UK due to the death of a relative if you live in France.[/quote] If the deceased was UK resident, and you received the money under a bequest in his/her will, then under the terms of the France /UK inheritance tax treaty of 1963 , you have no liability to french inheritance tax.  see here;    www.ambafrance-uk.org/Treaty-Inheritance-tax.html

Hi,     BAF is correct , since last year rents should be entered on 2047 VI net of expenses, but as it says in that section, UK tax paid should not be entered or deducted.  The figure is then transfered to 2042 8TK.

[quote user="Debra"]Has tax actually been paid in the UK though?  Could this be the result of the decision made by Paris in the issue about CSG and CRDS charges on UK rental income last year - that 'subject to tax' actually means that 'tax has been paid'?  So are people whose rental income is under their UK tax allowance going to be charged both tax and CSG/CRDS this year, with no credit? Earlybird if the child care tax credit is means tested, I can't see how Parsnips' reply  has helped you, because your UK rental income is still part of your 'means' even if no French tax is due on it. [/quote] Hi,        The point about "subject to tax " being taken by some french tax agents (wrongly) to mean UK tax has actually been paid is what caused a lot of problems last year (and looks set to cause still more this year).    Careful reading of the treaty, together with the fact that form 2047 expressly directs that the  amount of UK tax paid on the UK rents should not be entered, demonstrates that whether or not UK tax has been paid is irrelevant as the credit is for the amount of tax which would be payable if the rents were taxed in France.   I am not aware that "Paris" has made a decision on this , although I am sure some tax offices have said this to get rid of complainants--I would like to see references for an official publication to that effect.      Debra is correct.  Whether or not the rents should be taxed, they are added to your revenu fiscal de reference which is used in means testing.       

[quote user="Ian"]Looks like this is the case. I will send them an e-mail. Will it be enough to simply say (in french of course) "You seem to have taxed me on rent from UK property. As I am taxed on this in the UK, you should not have done this". In other words, is it a simple mistake that will be obvious when they re-look? Cheers[/quote] Hi,     You obviously haven't dealt with them before!  They never admit "simple mistakes".  You need to send a letter along the following lines Head it with your details and the references from the "avis" "Objet; reclamation impot induement pris sur mes revenus fonciers provenants du Royaume -Uni. Vu article 6 de la convention entre France et Royaume-Uni signé 19 juin 2008  qui dit,," les revenus qui sont imposables ou ne sont imposables qu'au Royaume -Uni....sont pris en compte pour le calcul de l'impot   français......le resident de France a droit ....à un credit d'impot ...ce credit est egal;   (i ) pour les revenus non mentionnés à l'alinea (ii )  (et les revenus fonciers ne sont pas mentionnés) au montant de l'impot français correspondant à ces revenus à condition que le resident de France soit soumis à l'impot du Royaume- Uni à raison de ces revenus" (j'ai été soumis à l'impot du Royaume- Uni -voir  copie ci-jointe). Je vous prie de bien vouloiur porter attention à mon dossier et me faire rembourser l'impot induement prelevé. Prier d'agréer Monsieur/Madame l'inspecteur l"expression de mes sentiments distinguées, signed ........................ Attach copies of all correspondence including the "avis" and the proof of the tax paid in the UK.     

[quote user="Ian"]Thanks for replying, Parsnips. That line doesn't appear on the assessment, but it wasn't on last year's assessment, either..... I'm confused. Cheers[/quote] Hi,      If your UK rents have been included in your taxable income , and you do not have the credit entry I quoted , then you have had tax assessed on the rents , without getting the corresponding credit which is the mechanism for applying the exemption for the rents.  Therefore , you have had tax taken on your UK rent which is in breach of the double tax treaty--you should go to, or preferably email , your tax office to claim a refund.  (I say email, because that way you have a record of what you have said , and more importantly their reply , for use in possible future appeals).

[quote user="Ian"]I've just had our assessment for 2011. They want about €600 more this year than last year, while our incomes have been much the same. There are two major differences in the assessment, compared with previous years. One is that they quote a gross figure which contains rental income from our UK flat. However, the "Revenu imposable" and "Total de votre imposition nette a recouvrir" are in bold print and it's not, indicating it's for information only. The second is that the "taux d'imposition" has gone up by 40%. Does this mean I'm paying a higher rate of tax on the taxable (rental-free) income? And if so, why? Please, can someone tell me if this year is correct, or if it's all a mistake, and I can ask them to re-assess me (for less)? Cheers[/quote] Hi,       It's difficult to say without more detail, but check to see if there's an entry for " Credit d'impot sur rev. étrangers (13)" near the bottom of the form --if not then you may have been wrongly taxed on your UK rent.   This happened to many people last year.

[quote user="EmilyA"]Does anyone know if the updated claim form has appeared yet? I can't see it on the website, but am wondering whether to send off the "claim for past winters" form.[/quote] Hi,      It's not on the website, and I was told I would be sent one "in August"; so I'll wait till the end of the month before following it up.

[quote user="nectarine"]The earliest I can take my pension is in February, which I plan to do, and the 25% lump sum. Is this taxable in France and, if so, how much? Many thanks all.[/quote]  Hi,    You don't say what type of pension you have , so I am assuming it is an occupational pension which is taxable in France and not a government pension (teacher, civil servant etc. ) which is taxable only in the UK.    The pension and lump sum are taxable here (after a fixed deduction of 10%).  The lump sum can be taxed in two ways depending on which you think most to your advantage--either in with your normal pension ,declared at form 2042 1AS (or 1BS as appropriate) when it will be taxed at your marginal rate, or , if you normally pay at over 7.5% , or you expect a very big lump sum, you can declare the lump sum only, at1AT (or1BT) when it will be taxed at a fixed rate of 7.5%.    In either case you can apply to reduce any excessive tax arising, by filling out 0XX at bottom of page 3 of 2042 which allows a special spreading of the liability to avoid going into higher tax bands. If you do this don't enter it as above in 1AS /1BS or 1AT/1BT.    Impossible to say how much , but you will pay tax at at least your normal rate, plus social contributions which could vary from 0% to 6.6% depending on your circumstances. For social contributions you declare in secVIII on form 2047.        If you are not sure , ask at the tax office.  You have plenty of time to sort it out as you don't have to declare it until spring 2014.  

Hi,       As idun says, and if you know what notaire / immobilier is dealing with his property, send them a copy too.

[quote user="Debra"]It would be nice to think that your optimism turns out to be justified, Parsnips, but I am doubtful.  It seems quite clear to me that clauses (i) to (vi) are listed as French taxes and are to be credited back by the French on income which is subject to UK tax, whereas when UK credits of French Tax against UK tax are discussed, only clauses (i) to (iv) are listed - leaving clause (v) CSG and clause (vi) CRDS conspicuously missing.  It seems very doubtful that the HRMC would decide to be magnaminous and credit CSG agains UK tax, losing UK tax revenue in the process, when they don't have to according to the treaty.  I guess we'll see if you are correct and they really are that generous, eventually.....(will it take as long as it seems to be taking the French tax office to back down (maybe) on the definition of 'subject to tax' that I pointed out might be a problem last October?) [/quote] Hi,      We'll soon find out who is right on this one , as the deputies yesterday passed the measure applying the CRDS and CSG to non-residents income from french real estate,( sales and rents) .    Hopefully , someone affected by this will let us know in the coming months how the UK treats the CSG paid on their rents.

[quote user="NormanH"]Now parsnips has confirmed that at least some people will get this allowance, although it remains ridiculous and arbitrary being neither based on need or where you live, but on the date on which you moved. As I said in the third post on this thread "I have certainly lived in places in France where it feels colder in winter than it did when I lived in the West of England. On the other hand I would be perfectly happy not to receive it on the grounds of income, if it were to be means tested" There are those who don't think that people living abroad should get the WFA, others who think it should be means tested, but can anybody really justify giving it or not on grounds of the date?. [/quote] Hi,        IT DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE DATE YOU MOVED---- All UK state pensioners living now in an EU country are entitled to claim, even if , like the man who took it to court, they have been out of the UK since the 80s.

Hi,   I phoned today , and spoke to a very pleasant young man , who didn't seem stressed or snowed under with calls.  He took my details , told me I qualified under the new ruling, and said I would be sent a claim pack. 

[quote user="powerdesal"]What a vitriolic thread this has degenerated into. Surely the answer to disagreements on who gets WFA and where is quite simple :- If you don't get it, and don't want it then don't apply for it. If you get it and don't want it then give it away to a deserving cause ( my bank details are available for this ). If you get it and are quite happy to do so then good luck to you. If you strongly object to others who get it then enter Politics and try to get the rules changed - good luck with that[/quote] HEAR ! HEAR! to that.