Money up front

[Angie]

We are having some work done to our house by a local French chap, cost around 10,000 euros. He lives close by and from what we gather has a good reputation in and around the area and is a fully registered tradesman. However, on his devis he requires 50% of the money "up front" (I wouldn't give him this in cash!) but although we have had numerous works done on our property over the years, we have never been asked for money before the work starts. Because of the sum involved this makes us a bit nervous. We do understand that he will need to buy quite a lot of materials to begin the work but this is his normal business and he has traded for many years so would assume he had a least a short period of credit with his suppliers. What redress would I have and who with if he decided either to string us along for months on end before starting or if, worse case scenario, he didn't start the work at all. Thank you

[Chancer]

You might have redress on paper but in practice, none at all.

 

Try and negotiate with him that you will advance funds (without specifying the amount) on his first day on site on a valuation of the materials that he has brought and that you will pay him more every Friday according to (your valuation of) the progress of the job.

 

I the first plaquiste I had working on the black doing my taping and jointing wanted 100% of the money up front before he would start the job, no way was I going to so I did a simple version of the above, having been here a decade I realise that he judges others by his own morality and that of those around him, AKA they are all robbers and would not think twice of screwing you over and then boasting about it.

 

Just this morning I get a call from the bank where the guy claims that the large amount of cash that I paid in was €50 short, they insist that I use the autolated guichet and said that two people open the envelopes, check each other and it is all filmed, when i put this to him it turns out to be lies, he was alone, unrecorded and how dare I doubt his word, AKA I am the thief.

[idun]

https://www.travauxlib.com/guides-travaux/versement-acompte-devis-travaux

If you look on there it is more or less what I thought.

IF in doubt about things french why don't you go on something like google.fr and then do a search in french? That is what I do these days. Plenty of french people have similar problems/questions.

This time, as I wasn't completely sure, I asked 'versement acompte travaux', I usually keep it simple.

[EuroTrash]

I've always been asked 30 per cent up front, I've always paid it and I've never been ripped off or had any cause to complain, must lead a charmed life I guess.

And if I send a devis for a very big job, I ask for 30 per cent up front if it's a new client. There are bad clients around. If you ask for 30 per cent, it proves that they do at least have money, and it also ensures that even if that's all you get, you haven't worked for nothing.

[NickP]

Like EuroTrash ( I really hated writing that [:D] ) on the couple of big jobs we have had done, we've paid 30% at the start of the job, then in our case 30% in  the middle and 30% at the end; subject to satisfactory completion. If they say they want more at the start because of buying materials I would be very wary as it could mean that they aren't trusted by local suppliers to have an account, and for me that would raise alarm bells.

[HoneySuckleDreams]

[quote user="NickP"]Like EuroTrash ( I really hated writing that [:D] ) on the couple of big jobs we have had done, we've paid 30% at the start of the job, then in our case 30% in  the middle and 30% at the end; subject to satisfactory completion. If they say they want more at the start because of buying materials I would be very wary as it could mean that they aren't trusted by local suppliers to have an account, and for me that would raise alarm bells.
[/quote]

 

Cool - 10% discount for cash ? [:D]

[YCCMB]

Sometimes, there can be circumstances where the builder may not have an account with a materials supplier. I know, because it happened to us. We got our neighbour's brother, a builder with a well-established business and reputation, to do the paving round our pool. We specified the paving to match the edging paviours and the supplier, whose details were in turn given by the pool installer.

He told us in honesty that either we'd need to buy the paving or give him the money up front, as the supplier wasn't one of his regular ones, so he had no credit account with them.

Frankly, I would have thought that the bigger the value of the work, the more likely the contractor would be to require a sum up front. After all, why should they take a risk on the client stumping up the cash at some unspecified later date?

Trust is a two way street....

[EuroTrash]

"Trust is a two way street...."

That is the key, of course.

It's a fact that some French tradesmen do tend to be wary of trusting Brits they haven't worked for before, because of the obvious danger of the customer vanishing back to the UK leaving half-finished grandiose plans and debts behind. Unfortunately, it happens. You don't say if it's your home or a second home, but that could be why he's asking 50 rather than the normal 30 per cent. I wouldn't take it personally.

Plus, if it's a 10,000 job it will likely take him a while to finish, and he has to feed his family for all that time. How would you feel if you were offered a job at 10k pa and your employer said "We'll pay you at the end of the year"?

Having got used to the French custom, it seems strange now that in the UK a tradesman is expected pay for all the materials and spend a long period of working time without asking the customer for a penny until the job is finished.

[Angie]

That's a ridiculous thing to say. I certainly wouldn't be expecting him to wait a year to be paid!! Its only a 3 week job in any case, probably 50/50 in terms of labour and materials. Its a lot easier for a tradesman to come to your home to demand payment of an invoice and there is the work to prove its been done. A lot more difficult to chase up a company, in a foreign country, after you have paid them. Yes, it is a second home and has been for 12 years and we have had lots of building work done on the house in that time. As I said before, no tradesman, French or otherwise, has ever asked us for money up front and we have always paid in instalments as the work has progressed, with no complaints. As one earlier post indicated, I would have little or no redress should the guy clear off without doing the job. £10k is a lot to us and has taken us a couple of years to save up so don't want to end up losing it.

[EuroTrash]

OK point taken, but looking at it objectively, who is more likely to disappear, on paper: an established tradesman who has his roots there, has built his business and family life there and has a reputation to protect, or a second home owner who can come and go as they please? As said, there's a bit of a tradition of half-finished projects amongst Brits. A tradesman isn't going to get far knocking on the door of an abandoned house whose owners have run away from it. Obviously you're not one of those but this tradesman seems to have his doubts, he's told you the terms on which he's prepared to do the job, and if you don't like them, don't accept. Since apparently neither of you is prepared to trust the other, maybe that's the best option.

[Théière]

[quote user="Angie"]That's a ridiculous thing to say. I certainly wouldn't be expecting him to wait a year to be paid!! Its only a 3 week job in any case, [/quote]

Is it a ridiculous thing to say, when there was no explanation of the full details in the original post. That's what forums often do, tease out the full story after many posts.

What percentage of the work are materials?

[Hoddy]

I've recently had a new kitchen fitted in the UK. I had to pay a deposit when I placed the order.

[Patf]

If you're worried about it why not buy the materials yourself - as someone suggested earlier.

That's what we've always done, though we've always been around when we're having work done.

Heard too many stories of a job being done while the owner was away and for some reason it wasn't exactly as they wanted.

And  I know of one case of a british tradesman making off with the "cash in advance"from several people, though it doesn't look likely that yours will do that, being local.

[Angie]

I've already said, 50/50

[idun]

Those links I gave, more or less said 30% and 20% before work begins, so that is 50%.

If this is a local with a good reputation then go with it.

My best friend's husband is what I would call a master artisan. When we moved to our village and did not know them, we never ever asked for a devis from him as his own home looked, basically, so shabby all those years ago.

My husband deals with electrics and yet, I have three lamps not working in this house....... and my friend's husband is also very very slow at getting jobs done at home too[:D]

 I would change the lamps myself but due to very very high ceilings and jippy knees cannot get up the ladders any more...... but they will get done. And my friend's husband eventually did up their home too, over 25 years[Www]

[woolybanana]

If there is a large and expensive amount of kit to buy, say a central heating boiler and radiators, or solar panels, then it seems perfectly reasonable to pay a decent deposit up front. But also after due diligence has been done on the tradesmen or whoever, surely?

[BIG MAC]

I would suggest simply buy the materials - get the artisan to advise that he wants the supplier to provide materials at trade prices.

No-one wants to pay VAT on VAT and this way means that the contractors bank aren't funding the work and costing him money.