Selling our house in France

[Wilsonjj]

Hi,

I wonder whether anyone can help with a Notaire issue. We are reluctantly selling our house in the Languedoc and have had a reasonable offer from a french buyer. Our estate agent requested a copy of the title deeds for the house which are with the Notaire that dealt with the purchase. He won't send them to the UK or fax/email them and will only let us pick them up in person. To this end my husband is planning to fly out for two days needs week in order to collect them and deliver them to the agents.

However, a friend has told us today that rather than using the buyers notaire, we can instruct our own at no extra cost. If this is the same notaire that holds our deeds, he can then liaise directly with the buyers notaire and we do not need to incur additional costs that we can ill afford.

Is this correct and can we do this and are there any disadvantages to us doing this.  

Many thanks in advance.

Julie

[Ron Avery]

Why is your Estate Agent in the UK, I thought you didn't want to incur uneccessary fees?

As you have bought in France you must be aware that normally there is a Notaire an employee of the state, who deals with the sale and represents the buyer and seller's interests.  You can use a different Notaire to the buyer if you want but what is the point?  What your friend may be getting confused about is the seller normally pays no fees, except for the obligatory surveys that must be undertaken.

[Kitty]

When we bought our house, we shared a notaire with our vendors but I wish that we hadn't (a long and complicated story). I then found out that we could have appointed our own and that the fees would have been the same, which is why notaires do not encourage the practice.

Yes, notaires are supposed to be impartial and represent both parties equally but no one is perfect and our notaire wasn't.

[Wilsonjj]

We are not using an estate agent in the Uk. We are using a French agent. However, our notaire (who dealt with our purchase) won't release our deeds to the Estate Agent - only to us when we are next in france. We were not planning to use him this time. We are happy to use the buyers notaire only but wondered if it would be easier to involve our own notaire to avoid a two day trip to France to collect the deeds in person. He won't play ball otherwise and we need the deeds in order to proceed.

[Wilsonjj]

Thanks Cathy. I think that's what we will do too. Julie

[Ron Avery]

Sorry Julie got confused by your post as to why they had to be sent to the UK. You have not actually explained why the Estate Agent wants to see the Deeds in the first place, why cannot your Notaire send them to the other Notaire, surely that is where they need to go?  It is really unusual to use two Notaire's in a French sale although it has been done by some English buyers who just cannot get the concept of an honest lawyer in their heads, it should not be necessary despite what you have been told.  Maybe Will who is the expert in this field will advise you soon.

[Will]

I am not an expert, but there is no legal or financial reason why you cannot use two notaires. In practice, it normally adds complication to an already protracted business, and can engender bad feeling on the part of the first notaire. Though it can be beneficial if the sole notaire is awkward, incompetent or anti-British (which, although rare, has been known). So in your case it may help, but if the notaire holding the documents (there are no title deeds in France in the same way as in England) won't release them to a bona-fide agent immobiler, I see no reason why he would be more likely to cooperate with another notaire.

 

[AnOther]

Just to clarify a point, ignoring politics and practicalities, I believe you are perfectly entitled to use a second Notaire and at no additional cost as they share the fee.

This probably explains why it may be unpopular with them [:)]

[Wilsonjj]

I have contacted the agent today and we have decided to use two Notaires. Our original notaire seems to be being difficult about handing the documents over as we were not using his services this time. He would not give them to the Immobilier at all and insisted that they be collected in person by either myself or my husband. No logical reason for this at all. He will now liaise with the Buyers Notaire and hand the documents over.

It all seems bizarre as we would have been happy to just use one notaire. We just don't want to incur costs of £200+ to travel over for two days in order to collect these documents in person because our original notaire won't release them.

Fingers crossed that things get easier from now on.

Thanks for all your posts.

Julie

 

[darnsarf]

We used the two-notaire' approach when we bought a couple of years ago. We also used a UK (french dept) law firm, partly as advisors on inheritance issues etc, partly as translators (expensive for this!) and partly for 'general wellbeing'. I chose a local Notaire who claimed on his site to speak english. In the event, his english was far worse than my french. The seller's Notaire was the one who handled the seller's original purchase. By stroke of bad luck, and despite being 30 miles apart, my Notaire used to work for the seller's one and the two hated each other! Further, my Notaire didn't get on with the local Mayor either. The two Notaires squabbled throughout the process, blaming each other for every typo and delay. It was OK in the end though and I think I'd still prefer the 'two Notaire' approach if only to ensure that things are more likely to be checked. The problem though seems to be that Brits tend to see the Notaire as a 'lawyer', not a 'processer of paperwork'. I was less than impressed with the Notaire system. That said, we did use the same Notaire when buying a nearby barn and it all went very smoothly (but maybe because the seller was the regional bigwig!) Whether selling or buying, I still think it's a good idea to have a lawyer protecting your interests.

[Ron Avery]

 I think I'd still prefer the 'two Notaire' approach if only to ensure that things are more likely to be checked. The problem though seems to be that Brits tend to see the Notaire as a 'lawyer', not a 'processer of paperwork'. I was less than impressed with the Notaire system. That said, we did use the same Notaire when buying a nearby barn and it all went very smoothly (but maybe because the seller was the regional bigwig!) Whether selling or buying, I still think it's a good idea to have a lawyer protecting your interests

How you come to those conclusions based on your experiences is beyond me,  How can you be "less than impressed" with a system that you didn't actually use? By appointing your "own " Noitaire you invited confrontation and complications.

You then say that when you did you use the Notaire system as intended you found it worked well[8-)], yet you then prefer the UK approach of having your own solicitor[:'(]

A Notaire is a lawyer and deals with the sale, he/she is not the buyer's or seller's representative.  In most cases the two Notaire approach is only used by the English who cannot accept that the French have a different way of doing things and insist on bringing their outdated, expensive and confrontational house buying system with them. 

[cooperlola]

Don't beat about the bush, will you, Ron?[:D]

Unless there is a major language problem, then I agree that using one notaire is much simpler and quicker.  There's a real upside to having all the paperwork dealt with by one person, but ultimately, it's your choice.

[darnsarf]

The tone of your response suggests you enjoy the confrontational approach you appear to abhore.

As I pointed out, I used the two Notaire system and the single Notaire one. The latter was for a cheap barn purchase of about 20K Euro and not a big deal. It was my UK lawyers who intervened on the house purchase and re-drafted all manner of clauses on the CdeV which would not have occurred to the Notaires -  and they were firmly in my interests. Call that confrontational if you like. It was my purchase and I wanted my representative to protect my interests.

"A Notaire is a lawyer and deals with the sale, he/she is not the buyer's or seller's representative"

Exactly my point. If paying for a professional to represent my interests is "outdated, expensive and confrontational" then bring it on.

[PaulT]

We appointed our own notaire when buying our house. The reason being that the sellers notaire spoke no French and the agent offered to translate. Two things wrong here. Firstly, buying in another country I should have spoken the language, and my grasp is not that good but improving. Secondly, I felt that the agent was in a position of not being impartial - sale goes through and get the commission. However, there was no basis for my thinking this other than there being a possible conflict of interest.

We appointed an English speaking notaire. The C de V was signed at the sellers notaires. The acte was signed at our notaires.

At no point did we feel there was any animosity about us doing this.

The signing of the acte was carried out in English (sellers also English) and our notaire occassionally telling the sellers notaire and also the agents boss what had been said.

This was all carried out in a very pleasant way and commenced with the notaire telling the sellers to hand over the keys.

If I did this again - unless I had a very good grasp of French I would choose an English speaking notaire.

Paul

[Ron Avery]

 It was my UK lawyers who intervened on the house purchase

Say no more DS.  Good to know you employed French property experts[Www] and your own Notaire........  [:'(]

[darnsarf]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

 It was my UK lawyers who intervened on the house purchase

Say no more DS.  Good to know you employed French property experts[Www] and your own Notaire........  [:'(]

[/quote]

Not sure I understand, given your use of icons. Have I missed something?

 

[Ron Avery]

Yes, DS you have!!  I'm not being deliberately confrontational, but you advocated to all the boys and girls on here looking for advice on buying in France that they should appoint their own  Notaire, everybody assuming, well me any way, that you meant a French Notaire.   You then throw in you used UK lawyers.  For what purpose ,to review a contract drawn up under French law?

So  what are you recommending and based on which of your experiences?   Are you saying based on your bad experience I would use a UK based lawyer and a qualified experienced French Notaire or based on my good experience I would use a French Notaire agreed with the seller?.

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="darnsarf"]

The tone of your response suggests you enjoy the confrontational approach you appear to abhore.

As I pointed out, I used the two Notaire system and the single Notaire one. The latter was for a cheap barn purchase of about 20K Euro and not a big deal. It was my UK lawyers who intervened on the house purchase and re-drafted all manner of clauses on the CdeV which would not have occurred to the Notaires -  and they were firmly in my interests. Call that confrontational if you like. It was my purchase and I wanted my representative to protect my interests.

"A Notaire is a lawyer and deals with the sale, he/she is not the buyer's or seller's representative"

Exactly my point. If paying for a professional to represent my interests is "outdated, expensive and confrontational" then bring it on.

[/quote]

I can agree in part with what Darnsarf is saying, We chose our Notaire (because he spoke some English, and we knew that our seller was a little dodgie (another story) and we didn't feel comfortable using his notaire)

We were satisfied that the first contract was OK, but when we were sent the final contract here in England we felt a little out of our depth trying to translate the French legal jargon, so we had it translated and checked over by a lawyer here who specialises in french property law, it cost us another £500 but it was worth it, she definitely earned her money buy pointing out a few things that were not 'as they should be' and we felt a whole lot better for it.

Yes belt and braces but our purchase was the first time we have bought in France and we didn't want things to go wrong. 

[darnsarf]

Sheesh, you've got a bee in your bonnet about this haven't you?

I'm not sure where "you then throw in you used UK lawyers" came from. Perhaps I can quote my first two sentances on my first reply.

"We used the two-notaire' approach when we bought a couple of years ago. We also used a UK (french dept) law firm, partly as advisors on inheritance issues etc, partly as translators (expensive for this!) and partly for 'general wellbeing' "

So there is no 'throwing in of anything'. Yes, I used our own local Notaire and the seller used his own (who had handled the sale before). As I mentioned, despite all squabbles, I still preferred this approach overall. 'My Notaire' spotted some major omissions in the vendor's rather eccentric counterpart's drafts. My UK lawyers found more and insisted on certain conditions being inserted in the compromis. Since you point out that a Notaire is not responsible for representing either vendor or purchaser, I find it weird that you seem to be advocating that people enter into an expensive purchase in a country with very different property laws, planning, inheritance, language etc without representation. Using an Agent as translator doesn't seem at all wise to me and I didn't find much in the way of 'advice' coming from the Notaires, just confirmation that the paperwork was in place. They may be 'lawyers' (using the term loosely) but their role (in my view) is to ensure that what's being sold is able to be sold and that the tax is collected on behalf of the French Gov.  I suppose you consider it appropriate to sit down with the vendor and buy a house costing hundreds of thousands of pounds over a glass of wine and handshake? Romantic and naive.

There was no confrontation with the vendor during the process (apart from the Notaires blaming each other for the delays). We're still in contact and at no time did he show signs that he was under pressure. The night before the Acte, we enjoyed dinner and stayed over at the house before driving down to the Notaire.

Using a UK law firm isn't about having your hired gunslingers ride into town with you (well, it is, a bit). It's about ensuring that there is no doubt that their advice should be to my advantage (and there's a clear way to progress if they fail in this regard). As a previous poster notes. It's belt and braces, more expensive certainly, but considering the potential cost of a purchase going horribly wrong, very cheap indeed. I say this as a non-lawyer, who constantly bleats about their fees!

No sarcastic, overused icons from me.

 

 

[Jacqui Too]

Actually I agree in full with what Darnsaft has said but I think everyone must chose what it right for them, they are the ones having to live with it after!

[woolybananasbrother]

If the notaire is any good he or she will explain the clauses in the contract to you and their implications. That is their job. 

Intead of having second notaires and Brit lawyers it would have been better to have a decent translation done and a translator present at the signing. IMNVHO

 

[darnsarf]

Thanks JT. I agree there's no hard and fast rule and I was careful to avoid saying my way is best, only that it was best for me, both before and after the sale.

WollyB. I agree it's the Notaire's job to explain what's written. Although I did most of the paperwork translations myself, checking tricky bits with the UK lawyers (and the Notaire 'pretested' my french before deciding I didn't need a translator at the signing!), my point was only that the Notaire is less likely to mention 'negotiable' things that are not there. So can't agree a translator would have been an appropriate alternative. But each to his/her own..

[Ron Avery]

They may be 'lawyers' (using the term loosely) but their role (in my view) is to ensure that what's being sold is able to be sold and that the tax is collected on behalf of the French Gov.  I suppose you consider it appropriate to sit down with the vendor and buy a house costing hundreds of thousands of pounds over a glass of wine and handshake? Romantic and naive. 

 No I used a Notaire who is a highly qualified French lawyer specialising in French law to buy a house in France.

However, I think this, copied from another website rather sums up the discussion don't you?

"The big difference between British and French systems is that rather than buyer and seller using their own solicitors, the French notaire acts for the state, and thus is impartial. In fact the notaire is often described, rather unfairly, as an over-qualified tax collector.
Some British buyers feel uneasy about having a single notaire and appoint a UK-based legal adviser, specialising in French law, to advise them and check the paperwork. This costs extra, of course.

 Many of those who have done this consider it has been money well spent, while others have regarded it as a waste of time and money..............." 

 

 

[darnsarf]

OK, truce et vive la difference!

I would just say that the UK lawyer I used was highly experienced, and qualified both as an Avocat in France as well as a UK Solicitor.

[mint]

Darnsarf, I wasn't going to post on this thread but I want you to know that we also appointed our own UK solicitor who is an avocat in France.  Unfortunately, the "translator", introduced to us by our sellers, was less than useless.  A sort of running warfare went on between our English solicitor and the translator and I was in the midst of it all.

The long and the short of it was that we had a lot more hassle and bad feeling than was necessary.  In hindsight, the solicitor who charged a thousand pounds, was not someone whom we would employ again.  The principle, however, held good.  We were new to this sort of purchase and we did learn a lot along the way.

This time around (and there will be a "this time" as soon the market settles down a bit), we will not bother with a British solicitor or our own notaire.  But I still think we did the right thing; it's just that now we know how things are done a la francais and we are more confident altogether.

I hear what you are saying and it's no good people telling you what to do.  You knew you had to have that extra help and I for one understand where you were coming from.  No need therefore to be apologetic or self-deprecating; you did the best for yourself at the time with the knowledge you had then and there's nothing wrong with that.