Rent of house in UK for tax return

[Hereford]

We have read the Tax FAQ's below (although we have sent in several returns here in France).  One paragrah confirms our opinion that rent from a house in the Uk does not generate social charges here in France.

A friend has been to her tax office twice now to query this - she has been charged them - and the person she sees is adamant that although no tax is due social charges are.

In the past we have seen reference to a French tax authority (sorry not very well explained) you can email, in English, with queries. Does anyone know the "address" please?  Or indeed somewhere official she could email in French so that she has something to take to her tax office.

Thanks

Mrs H.

(PS I posted a while ago about this but at that point my friend had been told the social charges were on her incapacity benefit..)

[Ron Avery]

The lady's name is Francine Riboulet Contrôleur des Impôts and her E mail address is [email protected]

Make it clear when writing where the property is and where the  tax on this rent is paid so she does not assume that it is taxed in France.. 

[dr orloff]

As provided for in the UK France tax treaty, rent for a UK house is not taxable in France - therefore France has no right to charge social charges.  It is declared on the red form 2147 section VIII - revenues not taxable in France and is only taken into consideration for the calculation of tax rates on other, taxable income.  I can't remember without looking at the form where this amount ends up on form 2142 - but it is definitely in a box that does not attract social charges.  I would ignore what the french tax office says and declare as above.  If you wish to corroborate you could read the tax treaty or search websites of expat tax consultants.

[cooperlola]

Is this right, Dr O?  I was under the impression (quite possibly false, so this is a genuine question, not a wind up!) that although income tax was not payable in France, that social charges were as income from rentals (wherever they be, and wherever income tax is payable) was classed as unearned.

[Hereford]

Thanks for such speedy responses. Can this lady be emailed in English or should it be French please?

My friend did put the rent in the boxes as described above - as do we for our own UK rental income.  We have never been charged social contributions but we have a different tax office!

Mrs H.

[dr orloff]

It is unearned income but the french still have no right to tax it - therefore cannot apply social charges, which are taxes.  That is why when you declare it correctly on the french income tax forms, as previously described, they do not charge you.  You can check this if you wuish against professional firms' advice by a bit of googling.

[gosub]

"Thanks for such speedy responses. Can this lady be emailed in English or should it be French please?"

You can email her in english if you wish.

[Hereford]

Brilliant, thanks to all. 

Mrs H

[Hereford]

Interersting isn't it this reply from the tax officer mentionned above - not I think the answer we were expecting.

You don't pay tax on your rent because your property is in UK, but you have to pay social levies because you live in france

> I  hope the above information will help you, I am staying at your service

> Pierre vergne inspecteur des Impôts

We have never been charged on our own rents.  Does by any chance age matter? or having an E121?

Mrs H

[Ron Avery]

"We have never been charged on our own rents.  Does by any chance age matter? or having an E121?"

No, not for the Contributions Sociale levied on "unearned income" having an E form only avoids the small deduction for CRDS on your pension.

[dr orloff]

I made an error in my advice above as I didn't have the form to hand at the time.  Rental income from the UK should be disclosed on form 2047 section VII (I originally said VIII)  - Revenus exoneres pris en compte pour le calcul du taux effectif.  This is for sure - it is the principle confirmed in the UK-France tax treaty.  This then transfers to box TI in form 2042.  Box TI does not generate a social charge. Hence while Pierre Taxman will always try to grab your dosh - in this case he cannot. 

There is a revised tax treaty that has not yet been ratified and, I have heard, probably never will.  In that document it specifically confirms that social charges cannot be applied in France to UK rental income.  This is because they are taxes (the draft treaty specifically describes them so) and UK rental income is wholly taxable in the UK.  That document is not law but does serve to reinforce the existing treatment - social charges are not mentioned in the original (extant) treaty as they did not exist when it was written.

It may be difficult for you to take my advice and ignore Pierre, so I would recommend a bit of googling - there are several professional tax advisors' websites that confirm where to disclose UK rental income.  I do put my money where my gob is.  I have UK rental income - it has been disclosed as above for several years with a full explanation of its provenance and I have never been clobbered with social charges, or the return queried.

 

 

 

 

[JulieR]

We too have uk rental income and declare it as above, as indicated by our local tax office.  We also do not pay social charges on the rental income, only on the income generated in France.  Though if you are referring to cotisations for your health cover then your worldwide income is accounted for.  Maybe you have the two muddled up.[8-)]

[Hereford]

Thanks for comments.  We have printed off latest Dr Orloff para. and will give it to our friend. Also check that we do the same with our rent (althought we have never been charged).  No we are not muddling up anything to CMU - we are on an E121 and so is our friend.

Are there any other "posters" who have been charged this imposition?

Mrs. H