Tax form 2047 problems

[Jotty]

Yes a point of view..but I have to point out that in my post above I quoted from 'the horse's mouth'

The system should work like that but there is a bug.

Why is it that no-one British can accept the direct information that I quote from  a French Tax Inspector?

Perhaps you haven't the same contacts as I have?

Or you prefer speculation to concrete evidence?

Experience of life in France, and relationships with the people who work in the bureaucracy count for more than pontificating on the basis that you understand official sites a little better than some people here who don't read French..

[Sunday Driver]

The information that you quoted from your French tax inspector:

"She tells me that it should work automatically as SD says  (ie go over from one It system to another). ..... If they get many more example like ours they are going to have to look at the problem."

How many more examples will it take for them to investigate? 

Until they've looked at the system, they can't express an opinion on the robustness of it's operation. Hardly concrete evidence that there is a bug in the French tax system.

[quote user="Jotty"]
Experience of life in France, and relationships with the people who work in the bureaucracy count for more than pontificating on the basis that you understand official sites a little better than some people here who don't read French..
[/quote]

And where has this new attack come from?

Who has been pontificating on the basis that they understand official sites a little better than people who don't read French?   [8-)]

 

[dr orloff]

Jotty - I am British and I agree with you that there is a bug in the system.  I think I remember that the instructions for the online declarations state that competing an annexe form, such as 2047, updates the 2042.  And I am sure that the entry on my return for bank interest did just that, whereas for the rent figure it did not.  On my book that's a bug.  I should have double checked the system afterwards rather than relied upon it to work properly - after all I have been in France a few years so I should know better.  But the instructions are not available now and so I can't be 100% sure.   I'll know better for next year but the meantime I'll have to deal with the tax office and my experience of the french is that they just don't accept that you're in the right.

 

 

[Weegie]

It looks as if Jotty's comment may have been directed at me. If so, I am not aware that I was "pontificating" in any way.  Merely expressing an opinion based on reading the documents and "Experience of life in France, and relationships with the people who

work in the bureaucracy".

There may,or may not, be a "bug" in the system. Whether that is the case or not, my suggestion to DrO was purely intended as a  pragmatic approach to a current difficulty he felt he is faced with. 

(Thanks SD.)

[dr orloff]

I don't see it as a difficulty, more an inconvenience.  It's just I'd like to point out to the Tax Office that their systems aren't working properly.

[Weegie]

I take the point, Dr O.

[parsnips]

Has anybody found a solution to the following: a friend has a government pension and also rent recieved from the UK which is under the limit of €15000 to qualify for the micro-foncier regime. Although this rent is only taxable in UK it should be taken into account to calculate the french tax rate on his wife's pension,taxable in France. The rent has to be declared along with UK tax paid on 2047 sec.VII then transferred to 2042 TI. There is no provision for claiming the 30% allowance due under "micro- foncier", which would reduce his french tax rate.

   Under the treaty he is entitled to be treated " as a french citizen in the same circumstances". The 30% allowance is given automatically ,but only if the rent is declared at 2042 page 3 case BE, which would lead to it being taxed. When we asked how he could claim this he was first told " it's not available on non-french rents"  when challenged on this (see above), they sent a 2044 on which he claimed "micro-foncier"; they then taxed the rent--then commenced a year long battle culminating in a threat (by us) to go to the Tribunal Administratif, when they suddenly and without any explanation capitulated ,and paid him back ALL the tax he had paid ,far more than was due!

   This year we declared it at 2047 sec.VII-2042 TI, after deducting UK tax, and in the column for expenses, a sum equal to 30% of the rent less the UK tax. This went through OK but the forms are clearly not laid out properly. Has anyone found a simpler way to deal with this?

      

[Cat]

Which treaty are you quoting the "as a French person in the same circumstances" from parsnips? 

[parsnips]

[quote user="Cat"]Which treaty are you quoting the "as a French person in the same circumstances" from parsnips? [/quote]

The current double-taxation treaty France/UK -Part IV Particular Agreements- Admissible and Inadmissible Taxes

 Article/ 25 : Non-Discrimination

 " (1) The nationals of a contracting state shall not be subjected in the other contracting state to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other state IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES are or may be subjected."( My Capitals).

 The  draft  new treaty retains the same wording but adds"in particularwith respect to residence"after "circumstances".

[allanb]

[quote user="dr orloff"]I think I remember that the instructions for the online declarations state that competing an annexe form, such as 2047, updates the 2042...[/quote] (my emphasis)

I'm not saying you're wrong, Dr O, but "I think I remember" isn't exactly hard evidence.  I've looked and I can't find that instruction.  If the system isn't in fact designed to do it, we shouldn't conclude that it's a bug.

Before we all get carried away, may I point out that we're talking about two different questions here (always referring to the on-line declaration process):

(1) Does the information on form 2047 get transferred automatically to form 2042?

(2) Does the information on form 2042 automatically generate the tax assessment (avis)?

[dr orloff]

wrt just point1)

I never said that it was hard evidence - that's why I have been asking if others can remember.  I have been trying to establish how the system was designed to work.  If it was designed to require duplicate manual entries then it is a pretty poor system.

Although I believe there is a bug I have never definitely concluded this.

I have tried to find the instructions but the declaration process is closed, so I cannot revisit them and confirm my recall, or otherwise. 

 

 

[Cat]

[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="Cat"]Which treaty are you quoting the "as a French person in the same circumstances" from parsnips? [/quote]

The current double-taxation treaty France/UK -Part IV Particular Agreements- Admissible and Inadmissible Taxes
 Article/ 25 : Non-Discrimination
 " (1) The nationals of a contracting state shall not be subjected in the other contracting state to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other state IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES are or may be subjected."( My Capitals).

 The  draft  new treaty retains the same wording but adds"in particularwith respect to residence"after "circumstances".
[/quote]

I'm far from being an expert on this, but my take would be this...

It is a non-discrimination article of an agreement drawn up to ensure that taxes that have already been payed, or are deemed to have been payed, are not paid twice.  As a non-discrimination article, its purpose is to ensure that you (in this case) are treated in exactly the same way as a French national in the same circumstances would be.

Are you being discriminated against for being British?  No.  The problem has nothing to do with discrimination on grounds of nationality, but arises because the rental property is situated in the UK.  So the question is, would a French national, earning an income from a UK rented property, be allowed to claim the 30% allowance due under "micro- foncier", which would reduce his french tax rate?

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="allanb"]
(2) Does the information on form 2042 automatically generate the tax assessment (avis)?


[/quote]

An instant assessment of the tax payable is provided once you have electronically submitted the 2042.

The subsequent tax avis is the formal demand/payment voucher which you would expect to have been generated from the data already held on the system.....

 

 

[Weegie]

[quote user="dr orloff"]

I have tried to find the instructions but the declaration process is closed, so I cannot revisit them and confirm my recall, or otherwise.

[/quote]

DrO.  I have been out but had given some thought to this and was about to suggest that you had a look at your Declaration on line.  I see what you say above but I have just gone on line and my Declaration is still available to view.[8-)]

If you can access yours it might let you see what has been transferred  from 2047 to 2042.  I appreciate that it doesn't help if you can't recall whether you entered some of the information manually.

[dr orloff]

That's the point really - I have examined my forms online and I know that the system didn't transfer the amount across.  The instructions were part of the declaration process and as that is now ended they are no longer available.

So whether the system was designed to operate in a 'manual' fashion or whether totals and transpositions were supposed to have been automated but failed for this particular box TI, I cannot prove.  Logic would suggest the latter as anybody who can use Excel at a basic level could design an automated suite of forms. Ah, but this is France - processes are supposed to be convoluted and problematic.

 

 

[Jotty]

[quote user="Weegie"]It looks as if Jotty's comment may have been directed at me. If so, I am not aware that I was "pontificating" in any way.  Merely expressing an opinion based on reading the documents and "Experience of life in France, and relationships with the people who

work in the bureaucracy".

There may,or may not, be a "bug" in the system. Whether that is the case or not, my suggestion to DrO was purely intended as a  pragmatic approach to a current difficulty he felt he is faced with. 

(Thanks SD.)

[/quote]

Sorry; no intention of getting at you at all...It was meant as a general remark.

[Weegie]

No probs.[:)]

[allanb]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]An instant assessment of the tax payable is provided once you have electronically submitted the 2042. [/quote]

Isn't this subject to the limitation that it doesn't work if you have any revenu exonéré?

This has been mentioned several times before and is still the case, I believe.  If so it confirms my suspicion that the avis is not generated automatically by the on-line declaration system.  Whatever or whoever produces the final tax calculation obviously takes revenu exonéré into account.   So it looks as though there's a missing link.

This is just personal speculation, of course.  But it I'm right it could explain the various inconsistencies that have been reported.

[Jotty]

I have always found that the instant calculation only works if you dont also submit annexes such as 2047

If you do it flags up as not possible.

[suein56]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]An instant assessment of the tax payable is provided once you have electronically submitted the 2042. [/quote]
Isn't this subject to the limitation that it doesn't work if you have any revenu exonéré?

This has been mentioned several times before and is still the case, I believe.  If so it confirms my suspicion that the avis is not generated automatically by the on-line declaration system.  Whatever or whoever produces the final tax calculation obviously takes revenu exonéré into account.   So it looks as though there's a missing link.

This is just personal speculation, of course.  But it I'm right it could explain the various inconsistencies that have been reported.
[/quote]

Which in turn could be why we still haven't received our avis d'imposition for 2007; although the tax people say that this delay is normal for a couple such as us with 'revenues encaissés' abroad.

Sue

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]An instant assessment of the tax payable is provided once you have electronically submitted the 2042. [/quote]
Isn't this subject to the limitation that it doesn't work if you have any revenu exonéré?

This has been mentioned several times before and is still the case, I believe.  If so it confirms my suspicion that the avis is not generated automatically by the on-line declaration system.  Whatever or whoever produces the final tax calculation obviously takes revenu exonéré into account.   So it looks as though there's a missing link.

This is just personal speculation, of course.  But it I'm right it could explain the various inconsistencies that have been reported.
[/quote]

Allanb

As you will no doubt recall, the limitation regarding 'revenu exoneré' which has been mentioned several times before actually refers to the basic everyday on-line tax simulator that we tend to use for running a what-if scenario -  remember, it's the one that can't handle box TI.....[;-)]

The instant assessment I refered to is produced at the end of the actual on-line declaration, ie, once all the data has been collected  - including revenu exoneré - and the submit button has been pressed.

 

[Weegie]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]An instant assessment of the tax payable is provided once you have electronically submitted the 2042. [/quote]

Isn't this subject to the limitation that it doesn't work if you have any revenu exonéré?

This has been mentioned several times before and is still the case, I believe.  If so it confirms my suspicion that the avis is not generated automatically by the on-line declaration system.  Whatever or whoever produces the final tax calculation obviously takes revenu exonéré into account.   So it looks as though there's a missing link.

This is just personal speculation, of course.  But it I'm right it could explain the various inconsistencies that have been reported.

[/quote]

I agree with what you are saying Allan.   Earlier this year I had a letter from my local Centre d'Impôts asking me to provide 1. evidence of tax paid in UK and 2. what health cover I had.

I went into the tax office with the necessary information.  I am on an E121 and explained that to the lady dealing with my dossier.  She put my file up on the computer and I noticed that she had altered my Declaration for last  year (revenues 2006)(she agreed that she had done so) by including the figures from Section VII in the box on the 2042 which made the amount liable to CRDS and CSG.  I then had a lengthy discussion with her and another of her colleagues and eventually convinced her that she (they) were wrong.  All the staff at the Centre had been under the same erroneous impression.

A slightly long story but it indicated strongly to me that any declaration involving a 2047 is not dealt with by an automated system.

[Sunday Driver]

Weegie

I notice from one of your earlier posts that you had had a problem in transfering a Section VII figure on a previous tax declaration and that you'd gone along to your tax office to sort it out.  Is this the alteration you are talking about here when you say revenues 2006?  I wonder if they'd flagged your account at the time to check to see that things were done properly this time?

I have to say, I declare on-line with a 2047/2042 and each time, I print off the instant assessment (that's the one available after you click on 'submit') and check it.  The 2047 data is always taken into account on the instant assessment and when the avis eventually arrives, it also matches the original assessment.  That does suggest to me that the automated system does work with my 2047......[;-)]

 

 

 

 

[Weegie]

SD

No the problem was this year and of my own making!  The information re 2006 (which had been completed correctly on-line) was discovered in February of this year before the due date for Declarations.  You may recall that, as a result of the February part, you and I (in an alter ego)  had a telephone conversation as I had prepared some information re E Forms for the C d'I and ran it past you for a second opinion on accuracy.[;-)]

[Sunday Driver]

Yes, I remember now.

Well, at least your tax office will now be fully genned up on the treatment of foreign incomes......[:D]