D'Imposition Prelevements Sociaux - Right or Wrong

[NormanH]

[quote user="Rides"]

Thank you for your reply Norman.  We don't have CMU - we just have our carte vitales plus top up insurance like everyone else.  Should I write and tell them this?  Maybe because our income is under the tax limit they assume we have applied for CMU, but we never have. 

Do you have any suggestions as to how to word the letter - any advice would be welcome as I haven't done much in the way of letter writing in French.

Thank you ever so much.

[/quote]

I presume you have OAP From the UK, and so have the Carte Vitale because you have an E121 or equivalent.

In this case what Sunday Driver wrote is about right (I have made a couple of corrections to the French), and repeat it here

Madame, Monsieur

L'Article L 136-1 du code de la sécurité sociale déclare que

"Il est institué une contribution sociale sur les revenus d'activité et

sur les revenus de remplacement à laquelle sont assujettis :

1.

Les personnes physiques qui sont à la fois considérées comme domiciliées

en France pour l'établissement de l'impôt sur le revenu et à la charge,

à quelque titre que ce soit, d'un régime obligatoire français

d'assurance maladie ;"

Grace à mes contributions de sécurité

sociale au Royaume-Uni, je suis titulaire d'un formulaire E121 (copie

ci-joint) qui me donne le droit d'assurance maladie en France.

Conformément à l'E121, le régime de sécurité sociale du Royaume-Uni paye

une cotisation annuelle à la France, donc je reste à leur charge plutôt que le régime obligatoire français d'assurance maladie.

Par conséquent, je remplis les conditions d'exemption énoncées à l'article L136-1.

Je vous prie d'agréer,  Madame, Messieur, mes sentiments les plus distinguées

And you need to send a photo copie of your E 121 with it

Please remember that we are only well-meaning amateurs

[Judith]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Judith"]NormanH

Thanks for that, so if the amount shown is allowable against next year's tax, how does that work??? 

[/quote]

On next year's tax form it goes under 'charges deductible ' on the last page of the declaration. It will probably be pre-printed carried over from this year.

It is deducted from your income in calculating the taxable total.

[/quote]

Sorry, I'm thick, obviously.  So why, if it is deducted against next year's tax, are we paying it this year??  Is this a tax or income?  Sorry, but it's making no sense at all!

[Sunday Driver]

You pay the bill now.

Having paid it now, you get a freeby in the form of a bit of tax relief - part of what you've paid now (in 2010) will be allowable against your 2010 income which, as you know, you declare in May 2011, ie next year.

 

[Rides]

Thank you for your reply, NormanH, and the letter.  We have already sent a letter very much the same - as posted by Sunday Driver - together with our E121's and the response we've had is as described earlier.  If I send the same letter again surely I'll get the same response?   I just don't know what they are asking us to send them.  Should I write and just say that we are not on the CMU and that we are both retired and on pensions from UK or what?  It's all very confusing.  Hubby is on the point of saying just to pay it and forget it as the grief is getting to me, but I don't want to pay something we don't have to as money is tight at the best of times and claiming back something from the French is virtually impossible I think.

 

 

[Judith]

Thanks, SD.

No, it makes it no clearer (what a very peculiar system!), but as long as I know where we are!  I'm not sure I could think up a more difficult way to do something - no - correction - if there is a difficult way to do it, the French will find it.  I love 'em (most of the time), but when it comes to organisation, do not get me started!

With luck, after a year or so, this will all be sorted, and we might even know what is happening!

[NormanH]

[quote user="Rides"]

  I just don't know what they are asking us to send them.  Should I write and just say that we are not on the CMU and that we are both retired and on pensions from UK or what?

 

 

[/quote]

I explained before

"they are asking for evidence of  the payments made to URSSAF, and the proof of your obligatory Health Cover"

That is the copy of your E121, and the letter both SD and I have given you explaing that as you are not 'à la charge' of the French health system you don't need to make payments to Urssaf because the UK does it for you.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Judith"]Thanks, SD.

No, it makes it no clearer (what a very peculiar system!), but as long as I know where we are!  I'm not sure I could think up a more difficult way to do something - no - correction - if there is a difficult way to do it, the French will find it.  I love 'em (most of the time), but when it comes to organisation, do not get me started!

With luck, after a year or so, this will all be sorted, and we might even know what is happening!

[/quote]

Look it this way.  I rent out an apartment  and the rent is subject to tax and also to PS.

I can however claim certain expenses against tax, one of which is a % of the PS I paid the previous year.

Is that really so peculiar?

[woolybanana]

Several apartments, no?

[Judith]

And we don't have any rental property, only bank accounts, of which I presume the interest is what is being subject to CSG.

And, no, Norman, your example doesn't  help, (but thanks all the same for strying) it just seems all quite strange to me, but then I'm a simple girl and cannot see any logic in something as complicated as that.

[Pommier]

Hi Judith this is my understanding of CSG. You earn €200 interest on money in your savings account, so you get a bill for €25 for CSG.

On next years tax return that €25 is shown as already paid (prefilled on the tax return) and is deducted from your gross income in calculating any tax due.

As I say, this is how I understand it so it may not be completely right!

[Rides]

Quote:  I explained before
"they are asking for evidence of  the payments made to URSSAF, and the proof of your obligatory Health Cover"
That is the copy of your E121, and the letter both SD and I have given you explaing that as you are not 'à la charge' of the French health system you don't need to make payments to Urssaf because the UK does it for you.


Yes, and I explained before that I have already sent the flipping letter, with copies of our E121 so if I send it again I'll get the same response n'est pas?  So, what's the point of sending it again?  They obviously got it the first time.  I'll just go and dig a hole and stay there until next Spring.

[NormanH]

Ok. I apologise for trying to help [:)]

So, what's the point of sending it again?  They obviously got it the first time

Perhaps you should go in and see them with the paperwork to hand.

In my experience of Administration here you can never be sure they have received or taken notice of anything.  Sometimes you even have to go back later and see a different person if you don't get the answer you want the first time.

[Gardengirl]

Oh dear Rides, it all sounds as if it's really upsetting you! Take a deep breath and have a cup of whatever does it for you and a nibble of something good - OH if you like! Mine's a fennel tea and a choc ginger biscuit by the way!  [:)]

It sounds a really good idea of Norman's to take your paperwork to the office, even if it'd a bit daunting and maybe even a long way. Take anything you think might have any bearing on it all; over-armed is always a good thing! I went with all sorts of papers last week about taxe habitation, and happened on a very helpful clerk at the front desk, having come across dragons and dragons in training before. Good luck!  [:)]

[cooperlola]

Rides, I have been here for 7 years and in the CMU all that time - firstly with an E form and since then paying.  My CPAM now has (I kid you not) 11 copies of my marriage certificate and 8 of my birth certificate.  Every year when we do the proof of income and residence thing, they ask for a copy of each, which I take round in person, then several weeks later they ask for another copy of one or both, on pain of the withdrawal of my rights!  Take note of what Nomran says and do it all again - the left hand never talks to the right hand and asking for loads of bits of paper several times over is what keeps government departments in work![6]

[Pommier]

Best tactic is to take all paperwork to CPAM, but just produce items as requested - never give more information than they ask for as it just confuses the issue.

[Judith]

[quote user="Pommier"]Hi Judith this is my understanding of CSG. You earn €200 interest on money in your savings account, so you get a bill for €25 for CSG.

On next years tax return that €25 is shown as already paid (prefilled on the tax return) and is deducted from your gross income in calculating any tax due.

As I say, this is how I understand it so it may not be completely right![/quote]

Pommier,

Thanks.  That I can understand (it has to be simple for me!!), and yes, that does make sense.

I am still trying to find a simple (ha, ha!), guide in English, if possible, to the tax forms and what each bit means (as the dictionary definitions do not always help)  and what is taxed, how etc, and how it all relates to each other (that is presuming it does).  I have read lots about tax and the system, it, but often, as here, it only serves to confuse.  I've tried reading about it in both English and French (which is adequate for most things until it comes to financial, as I really do not have much expertise in finance).  An explanation of the tax system, with examples of forms etc, for les nuls, as it were. In my dreams, obviously.

[NormanH]

In fact I don't think you will get all the €25 in Pommiers example back, as it isn't tax paid in advance.

It is an allowance against part of the CSG paid this year.

That is to say that CSG is regarded as a tax-deductible expense.

For example in 2009 I paid €249 CSG, and was allowed €119 of that to set against Income.

This may be different in the case of CSG paid on interest, but it is certainly true of CSG paid on rent.

This may help

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public;jsessionid=J5YU4YI4IPD0BQFIEMRCFFOAVARXAIV1?paf_dm=popup&paf_gm=content&paf_gear_id=500018&typePage=cpr02&docOid=documentstandard_1808&espId=0&temNvlPopUp=true&hlquery=csg

[Judith]

Normanh,

From a quick read it looks as though the interest on capital is not treated in the same way as rents, so useful, but explains the confusion above.   I still think I'll have to research further to be sure that we should have been paying it..... it may yest be a trip to the tax office, but for that I need to know what the various financial terms are, and that is the stumbling block.

[NormanH]

I could go through the 'Avis d'Impostion' translating each term, but it would be a bit of work.

I will do it if it really helpful to you.

[Sunday Driver]

[img]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vqYMsKZhL._SS500_.jpg[/img]

 

[Judith]

NormanH,

That is a very kind offer, but, having now seen SD post (brilliant - now why didn't I find that - I know - not been near a bookshop for ages (!)), I think I may be able to spare you the trouble, as I could translate it, it was understanding the implications and the technical terms in needed.

Right, off to see what Amazon can do for me ......

Thank you, both

[Judith]

OK - new edition due out Feb 2011 - 21€ - cheap at the price!!

[Will]

On the other hand, this might save you the bother of translating: http://www.pkfguernsey.com/index.php?page=53

The book is a couple of years old, but the company offers a free e-mail tax update newseltter.

 

[Judith]

Thanks, Will.

I already have this book, though a few years old, it does not explain the system per se, as I want it,just the basic principles, and is written from the UK perspective, not the French, ie it is more about avoiding such things as capital gains, than filling in tax forms and what they mean etc.  Believe me, I've been looking at this subject since 2005 (and before) and I have still to find a good source for tax affairs - since my reading French is adequate I hope the nuls book will help (it's due to arrive tomorrow - we decided to buy the current book and possibly next year's if it is any good!).

[NormanH]

But if your French is adequate why not just peruse the www.impots.gouv.fr  site carefully?

I have found everything I need to know clearly explained there.

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/particuliers.impot;jsessionid=TSURIS1NNPSSNQFIEMQCFFWAVARXAIV1?espId=1&pageId=part_impot_revenu&impot=IR&sfid=50

An example of a useful set of information is:

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/particuliers.impot;jsessionid=TSURIS1NNPSSNQFIEMQCFFWAVARXAIV1?pageId=part_impot_revenu&paf_dm=popup&paf_gm=content&typePage=cpr02&sfid=501&espId=1&communaute=1&impot=IR&paf_gear_id=500018&temNvlPopUp=true