HELP !!!

[bixy]

We have just received a tax demand. Normally we pay no tax in France because of the tax we pay on our public service pensions in the UK. I think I see where I went wrong, in that the forms have to be filled in differently this year. Am I right in thinking that our public pensions are now entered in section Vl of form 2047 under "Montant Brut de Revenus etc."(column 4), but what do you put in column 5 "Montant des Charges Afferentes etc.? Is this where the tax we have paid goes?

We have printed off new forms to complete correctly and intend sending then back to the tax office together with a covering letter and the tax demand. Is this the best course of action?

Your advice much appreciated by a very confused - Patrick

[stan]

The answer is in the French tax FAQs at the top of the Finance page. Look where it says "that is for your Govt Pension". I too have a Govt pension and successfully followed the procedure as contained within this thread.

[stan]

Just in case you miss it !.....

Q:

As a retired teacher, I have a government pension which is taxed at

source in the UK. As I have already paid the tax on it in the UK, do

I really need to declare it in France?

A:

Yes, ‘government’ pensions such as those paid to teachers, civil

servants, police and armed forces remain taxable in the UK but they

have to be declared in France because the income is taken into

account for determining which tax band your other French taxable

income falls into. Having declared the pension here, you are then

entitled to a corresponding French tax credit so you don’t end up

paying tax twice over.

So, on form 2047, your

gross pension goes in section I PENSIONS, RETRAITES, RENTES.

The total then go across to box 1AS (or box 1BS if it’s

your wife’s pension) on the form 2042. Then to get the tax

credit, you enter the gross amount of the pension on form

2047 section VI REVENUS IMPOSABLES DE SOURCE ETRANGER OUVRANT DROIT A

UN CREDIT D’IMPOT EGAL AU MONTANT DE L’IMPOT FRANCAIS

CORRESPONDANT A CES REVENUS then transfer the total across to box

8TK on the form 2042.

That's

it for your ‘government’ pension.

[NormanH]

It is section 7, not 6

Revenus Exonerés, pris en conte pour le taux effectif

Montant Brut is Column 4

That is the Gross amount you received (in Euros)

Montant Acquitté à l'Etranger in Column 5

is the amount of tax you paid in the UK (in Euros)

There is then a box at the bottom of Column 4 for the total of 4-5

That is the amount to transfer to box 8 T1 on the 2042

[parsnips]

[quote user="NormanH"]It is section 7, not 6

Revenus Exonerés, pris en conte pour le taux effectif

Montant Brut is Column 4

That is the Gross amount you received (in Euros)

Montant Acquitté à l'Etranger in Column 5

is the amount of tax you paid in the UK (in Euros)

There is then a box at the bottom of Column 4 for the total of 4-5

That is the amount to transfer to box 8 T1 on the 2042

[/quote]

Hi,

   This is an explanation of how it was done in PREVIOUS YEARS --THIS YEAR, following the introduction of the NEW TREATY it is as in STAN'S post.

  In the new method  NO ACCOUNT is taken of TAX PAID IN THE UK, so there is no place in sec VI 2047 for tax paid. "Charges Afferentes", is used mainly for rental expenses. 

[bixy]

Thanks for those replies. I didn't realise that the FAQs had been updated.

What about the second part of my question - what should I do now?

Patrick

[NormanH]

[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="NormanH"]It is section 7, not 6

Revenus Exonerés, pris en conte pour le taux effectif

Montant Brut is Column 4

That is the Gross amount you received (in Euros)

Montant Acquitté à l'Etranger in Column 5

is the amount of tax you paid in the UK (in Euros)

There is then a box at the bottom of Column 4 for the total of 4-5

That is the amount to transfer to box 8 T1 on the 2042

[/quote]

Hi,

   This is an explanation of how it was done in PREVIOUS YEARS --THIS YEAR, following the introduction of the NEW TREATY it is as in STAN'S post.

  In the new method  NO ACCOUNT is taken of TAX PAID IN THE UK, so there is no place in sec VI 2047 for tax paid. "Charges Afferentes", is used mainly for rental expenses. 

[/quote]

Yes there is!

Column 5, "Nature e montant de l'Impot eventuellement acquitté à l'Etranger"

That is deducted from the Gross amount in Column 4 to give the net sum to declare in 8 T1

as you say this has been like this for  years, and  the forms I had this year (pre_filled in as I have been doing this for 16 years) are exactly the same..

All the same I know that you are more expert than I am, so there must be something somewhere that I don't know. ( I was away for a few months)

But my main point is that as the forms are the same and there is nothing in the accompanying 'notice' to indicate any changes it seemed best to fill them in as normal in the tried and tested way

I will see if my forms are sent back, but so far no reaction from the tax office.so far.

[suein56]

[quote user="NormanH"] ... as you say this has been like this for  years, and  the forms I had this year (pre_filled in as I have been doing this for 16 years) are exactly the same..

All the same I know that you are more expert than I am, so there must be something somewhere that I don't know. ( I was away for a few months)

But my main point is that as the forms are the same and there is nothing in the accompanying 'notice' to indicate any changes it seemed best to fill them in as normal in the tried and tested way  [/quote]

After confirming with our tax office by email that nothing had changed this year as far as they were concerned, I filled in our form as normal and have today received our notification which follows the same pattern as usual ie 'revenue exoneré mais pris encompte pour le taux effectif'. Though I was advised the forms would be changed for next year.

Edit: I declare online so was anticipating changes after reading parsnips post, but this was not the case in our area.

Sue

[NormanH]

Perhaps it's regional.

We all have experience of one office applying different rules to others.

I too declare online normally, but even there the site has pre-filled in details of my French income, personal details etc.

This year I missed the deadline (not just the one for declaring, but also the later one after which theu close the site)  because  I was in Hospital,

 so had to send in the printed forms with my excuses and evidence of my stay so I don't have to pay any more..

[parsnips]

[quote user="NormanH"]Perhaps it's regional.

We all have experience of one office applying different rules to others.

I too declare online normally, but even there the site has pre-filled in details of my French income, personal details etc.

This year I missed the deadline (not just the one for declaring, but also the later one after which theu close the site)  because  I was in Hospital,

 so had to send in the printed forms with my excuses and evidence of my stay so I don't have to pay any more..

[/quote]

Hi,

     Well, as you will see from my older posts I had anticipated this kind of confusion, but this is the first confirmation of some offices still sticking to the old method. The incompetence of french officialdom never ceases to amaze!

[suein56]

[quote user="parsnips"]The incompetence of french officialdom never ceases to amaze! [/quote]

IMHO I don't quite agree; in the 6 years we have been here we have been treated with diligence and care whatever has been our query or problem, and there have been quite a few.

Apart from one chap in our local CPAM who really had no clue what to do with us and kept asking for our (non-existant) CAF reference, but this was because he couldn't believe that, at 55 years of age, we could retire with no pension and still have money to live on. 

IMV the phrase should perhaps read : The diversity of opinion of french officialdom never ceases to amaze!

Sue

[bixy]

Still somewhat confused. We receive both the old age pension and a teachers pension. Do both of these go in Pensions,Retraites,Rentes on form 2047 and then to 1AS/1BS on form 2042. This would appear to be a change from previous years when only the OAP went into these sections. Your help would be much appreciated - losing sleep over this.

Patrick

[NormanH]

Sorry if I added to the confusion.

I suggest you follow the advice given by parsnips and sid.

Sue and I seem to have tax offices that haven't updated.

[NormanH]

I don my dunce's cap and try to explain this as I 'understand 'it in the hope that someone will either confirm or contradict.

New method of calculating Tax payable in France by those with a UK local  Government pension.

1) Take the total gross income ( UK local  Government pension. + any OAP or French income)

2) Calculate the tax you would have paid in France on this total if it had all been paid here. You can use one of the 'ready reckoners for this)

3)Ignore completely any tax paid in the UK

4) Calculate the tax you would have paid in France on your gross UK local  Government pension. This gives you the' tax'credit' spôken of.

5) The tax payable is the Total in (2) above, minus the tax credit in (4) above.

This will be a little more than in the past, since the tax in France is

now calculated on the gross income, not on the nat of UK tax income.

Logically there will always be some tax to pay in France for anyone with

a UK local  Government pension, plus either or both a OAP, or a French

Income.

If you have been shown as 'non-imposable' it is possibly because of the

'glitch' on the Impôtts website, by which the UK part is sometimes not

counted if you declared online ( a known and observed fl:aw in the site)