VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION RE 2011 DECLARATIONS

[Boiling a frog]

`My conclusion is

If the Revenue and Customs of the United Kingdom state that your pension is classified as a Government pension and is therefore taxable solely in the United Kingdom then Article 18 and 19 of the taxation treaty applies.

If they say it is not a Government Pension then it is not taxable in the UK but in France

A State pension is NOT a Government pension so is taxable in France

[JohnRoss]

I am with you on that allanb and one speaks from bitter experience. Just trying to find out where to put what on the flippin forms so they don't c**k-up again or as our hosts would say "Une grosse bourde!"......JR

[cooperlola]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="cooperlola"]If I were in the position of having UK taxable income to declare, I'm afraid that I would just follow the French language instructions on the tax form (ie do what I've always done!) and let them sort it... [/quote]I have a lot of sympathy with that view.  The trouble is that to make sure that you don't pay too much tax it isn't enough just to declare your income: you need to declare it in the right place on the form.  And there isn't always enough information on the form or the accompanying instructions to be sure about that. (Example, as already mentioned: what is a pension d'état?)

"Letting them sort it" assumes that they will take the trouble to find out what each item is, check whether it's in the right place, and change it if it isn't.  I don't have nearly enough faith in them to rely on that. 
[/quote]

Well, maybe I have been lucky but when I made a mistake on my return in the past, the office phoned me and we sorted it out then and there. 

The problem seem to me to be that if you assume facts not in evidence (ie you have not had a letter in the first place) and declare in the "new" fashion, then if your tax office has not yet caught up with the new regs, you could end up paying more rather than less.  As far as everybody has been able to demontrate up to now, if anything those affected will lose out, not gain anything.   

Visiting the office and asking is an idea - but in my experience, the person you talk to there is not always the person who inputs the figures and does the calculations anyway so often the advice can be contrary - as a lot of forum members have found in the past in various ways.  So I still reckon that doing what the form tells you to do is your safest bet unless you have had the letter. 

Has anybody tried to do this on line yet and if so was the outcome, tax wise, what you expected?  Until we have this kind of evidence, we can only continue to go around in ever decreasing circles.

My only interest is in making sure that the FAQs are correct and so far it seems to me that either could be correct, according to which tax office you come under.  Indeed, there may not be a consistent policy this year at all.

 

[JohnRoss]

Well I have sent this email to Parthenay to seek clarification:

 

Je vous remercie pour votre réponse.

Juste pour clarifier la situation que vous dites que je devrais ajouter ensemble ma pension de vieillesse du Securité Social britannique qui est imposable en France et ma pension payée par le gouvernement suite à mon emploi dans l'Enseignement qui est toujours imposable en Grande Bretagne et inscrire le total dans 1AS (2042-K)?

De plus dois-je puis écrire que ma pension payée par le gouvernement suite à mon emploi dans l'Enseignement dans 8TK (2042-K) et VI 2047-K d'obtenir un crédit d'impôt?

 

I can almost hear the groan "Oh no not 'im again!" Thanks to suej for the useful phrases and will post the reply if anybody is interested............JR

[parsnips]

Hi,

  I think that we are getting tied in linguistic knots over this. Because of the cack-handed way they have announced the changes, they will have to accept declarations done both ways.  The important thing is what they do with the figures that they take from those (possibly corrected by them) declarations.  On the level of competance so far displayed I am not looking forward to a mistake- free" avis" this year.  ( I have declared on line (new method ) but cannot find an estimated tax liability on the site).

.

I think the important thing is to very carefully check our "avis" this year and if the tax bill is substantially higher, to try to find out EXACTLY how they are calculating the credit--in my opinion there will be great scope for misinterpretation and plain wrong maths.

   

[cooperlola]

[quote user="parsnips"]Hi,
  I think that we are getting tied in linguistic knots over this. Because of the cack-handed way they have announced the changes, they will have to accept declarations done both ways.  The important thing is what they do with the figures that they take from those (possibly corrected by them) declarations.  On the level of competance so far displayed I am not looking forward to a mistake- free" avis" this year.  ( I have declared on line (new method ) but cannot find an estimated tax liability on the site).
.

I think the important thing is to very carefully check our "avis" this year and if the tax bill is substantially higher, to try to find out EXACTLY how they are calculating the credit--in my opinion there will be great scope for misinterpretation and plain wrong maths.
   
[/quote]

I agree, Parsnips.

I'm surprised that you didn't get a tax liability figure as I certainly did.  Just before you press the "signature" button, a page comes up with the full details and an "Estimation de votre impot" plus the chance to press another button for the "detail de votre impot".  In fact you can also print this page out as I did.  It's important because then you can change your direct debit amounts to reflect the new payment.  I assumed that the system worked the same way for everybody.

[JohnRoss]

Well here is the reply to my last email to the tax man:

Monsieur,

Vous avez parfaitement compris.

ligne AS l'ensemble de vos pensions perçues en Angleterre et ligne 8TK (et cadre VI de la 2047) uniquement votre pension publique

Cordialement

So that is what I will do........JR

[cooperlola]

[quote user="JohnRoss"]Vous avez parfaitement compris. [/quote]I call that unequivocal.[:)]

[JohnRoss]

and would confirm that "votre pension publique" is, as has been suggested, my government teacher's pension and not the State old age pension!........JR 

[splishsplash]

Oh crikey, I wish they wouldn't keep changing these things!

I went in to the tax office this morning with the normal blue & white declaration form 2042 SK

We usually just add the UK state pension and private pension figures together & enter them in box 1AS

But... she has pencilled in on form 2047 "Pension Publique" does she mean a Govt service pension or the state old age pension?

She told us that this box was now only for the private pension and that our UK state pension figure has to go on the pink form 2047

under Pensions, Retraites, Rentes as there is now a credit.

Am I correct in assuming that this is what John Ross has been told?

We don't usually have to pay tax here as we are under the threshold, but if we have to this time, will we be able to claim it back from the UK or is this what the credit is for?

Sorry, but it seems so confusing!

[JohnRoss]

I think what they are saying is that , as in my case, add govt pensions and state pensions together and put them in box 1AS on form 2042-K. I assume now the total of all pensions will go here including private ones. Further, and again as in my case, put only the govt pension gross in VI on the 2047-K form and box 8TK on the 2042-K form and not the state (old age) pension. I further assume that the total of all pensions will go in page one of 2047-K under Pensions, Retraites, Rentes. Only govt pensions should be taxed in the UK which is why I will need a tax credit from the French tax man. Any UK tax paid on other pensions should not be charged by the UK and if so should be claimed back. No doubt someone will post if I have over simplified this.......JR

[splishsplash]

Right, I think I'm with it now!

Thank you for helping me out & fingers crossed!

[allanb]

I still haven't received anything resembling the "Parthenay letter."  Most of the tax office comments that have been quoted refer to pensions of various kinds, but I am wondering about other types of income.   Do we know yet whether the change in method applies to all income from the UK?  In other words, is it possible to say that so far as UK-source income is concerned, there is no longer such a thing as revenu exonéré?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="allanb"]I still haven't received anything resembling the "Parthenay letter."  Most of the tax office comments that have been quoted refer to pensions of various kinds, but I am wondering about other types of income.   Do we know yet whether the change in method applies to all income from the UK?  In other words, is it possible to say that so far as UK-source income is concerned, there is no longer such a thing as revenu exonéré?


[/quote]I've read Note 16 (the one appropriate to Section VII) and the letter (French version) several times now.  The only situations in which a British person might have to use VII now (if you have received the letter and follow it, that is) seems to me to be those who work and even then the circumstances are very specific and so probably the majority of people on here won't be concerned with it any more.  So, imho, revenus exoneres still exist but I suspect they are more relevant for employees of French companies working in other EU countries.  But of course, I stand to be corrected - I am certainly no accountant.

People like me, of course, continue to use Section VIII so no, it has not changed for everybody.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="allanb"]

Do we know yet whether the change in method applies to all income from the UK?  In other words, is it possible to say that so far as UK-source income is concerned, there is no longer such a thing as revenu exonéré?

[/quote]

The change in method only applies to income which remains taxable in the UK under the DTT and which is therefore 'revenu exonéré' in France. If you are referring to revenu exonéré to be taken into account for the calculation of the taux effectif, then there is no longer any need to enter this separately as it's taken into account when you enter the income in the 'taxable' boxes such as 1AS etc.

No change as regards UK income which is taxable in France.

 

 

[splishsplash]

For anyone in receipt of a UK state pension, I re-visited another tax office today to clarify the situation & here's what they said.

I went to another local tax office this morning & showed her the forms that the lady in Limoges had pencilled in. She went & queried them & told me that they were incorrect!

So for anyone on a UK state pension & with or without a private pension, here's what you need to do...

Fill in the box 1AS on the blue form 2042. For the husband, add together any private pension to the UK state pension (old age pension) & enter this figure under "VOUS"

For the spouse, add any private pension to the state pension & put in the box marked "conjoint"

THEN... You need to do exactly the same on the pink form 2047. On the front page, under Pensions, Retraites, Rentes, enter the husband's total next to "VOUS" and the spouse total next to "CONJOINT"

Both of you date & sign both forms & VERY IMPORTANT...

so that you don't get charges social charges, attach a copy of the E121 or S1 forms from the UK.

If you are a dependant of your spouse, you will only have one form, but if you are both over retirement age, you should attach one for each person.

I am aware that some people have received letter & others have not & that some people have received pink forms & others have not, but purely for us OAP's with or without private pensions, she assures me that this information is correct.

I am now confident that this is correct & hopefully it may save others from having the hassle that we have had this year!

_________________

[cooperlola]

Splishsplash - the UK State (old aged) pension is indeed treated just as private pensions are and nothing has changed in that regard.  The only difference is for those with a UK PUBLIC SECTOR pension (civil servants, servicemen etc) - this is what is causing the confusion.

Otherwise, as for you, the instructions in the FAQs are indeed still correct.[:)]

[Boiling a frog]

Quite correct ,but on a small point, one should complete 2047 prior to completing 2042 because 2047 tells you where to transpose the appropriate entries onto 2042.

There is no mention of a PUBLIC SECTOR PENSION in the UK/France double taxation treaty(in the UK version)

There is mention of a GOVERNMENT PENSION and the tax office in the UK will tell you whether your pension is a Government Pension or not.

For instance certain pensions paid following work in the NHS are NOT Government pensions.

[Boiling a frog]

How do I know if my pension is a Government service pension?

Pensions paid for former service to the UK Government are known as Government Service Pensions. Pensions paid for former employment with the H M Forces, Civil Service and Foreign and Commonwealth Office are all regarded as Government Service Pensions.

If you are still unsure you should contact us giving the name of your former employment and the payer of your pension.

Usually Government Service and Local Authority Service Pensions paid to British nationals living overseas remain taxable in the UK. You will still be eligible to receive full UK Personal Allowances and reliefs.

The main exceptions are Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Cyprus where exemption for Government Service and Local Authority Service Pensions can be claimed.

If an individual is a national of and resident in an overseas country, exemption under a Double Taxation Agreement may also be due for a Government or Local Authority Service Pension.

Please refer to the DT Digest (PDF 127K) or contact us for further information.

The rules regarding the treatment of Local Authority Service pensions under Double Taxation Agreements are very similar to those applicable to UK Government Service Pensions. However not every Double Taxation Agreement is the same. You should refer to the DT Digest or contact us if you need further clarification.

A number of claim forms are already published on this website. However you may need to contact South Wales Area Residence Group for any forms not published on this website for your claim to be made.

National Health Service Pensioners

National Health Service Pensions are not regarded as Government service pensions for the purposes of most Double Taxation Agreements.

UK Government Pensions

South Wales Area Residence Group provides specialist advice regarding the treatment of UK Government pensions and certain Local Authority service pensions such as Teachers' and Metropolitan Police pensions under Double Taxation Agreements.

Contact details

Address:

South Wales Area

Residence Group

Ty Glas

Llanishen

Cardiff

CF14 5FP

United Kingdom

Telephone: (+44) 029 2032 5058

[parsnips]

Hi,

    See also here;

 INTM343040 - DT claims and applications - Types of income: Pensions and Annuities

Government or Non-Government

There is a list below to help you identify whether pensions are

Government or Non-Government for the purposes of the pensions articles

of the Double Taxation Agreements (DTAs).

If you are dealing with a claim or application for exemption from UK

tax in respect of any pension and you are in doubt whether the pension

is Government or Non-Government, refer the file to Technical Advice

Group.

Pension	Government / Non - Government	Notes
Armed Forces (Army, Navy & Air Force)	Government
Army Officers Widows Pension Fund	Government
Army Widows & Orphans Fund	Government
Atomic Energy Authority	Non-Government
Bank of England	Non-Government
British Coal	Non-Government
British Council Superannuation Fund	Non-Government
British Museum	Government
CAPITA		Note 4
Civil Aviation Authority	Non-Government
Civil Service	Government
Commonwealth War Graves Commission (formerly Imperial War Graves Commission)	Non-Government
Environment Agency	Non-Government
Fire Brigade - paid directly by a Local Authority	Government	Note 3
Fire Brigade - paid by a Fire Authority (Fire Fighter's Pension Scheme)	Government
Forestry Commission	Government
Hong Kong Sterling Safeguard	Non-Government
House of Commons Members Fund	Non-Government
Indian Pensions	Part Government & part Non-Government
Indian Army Pensions	Non-Government
Joint Matriculation Board	Non-Government
Lighthouse Service (Trinity House)	Non-Government
Local Authority (excluding those for trading activities such as Water Board, CEGB)	Government	Note 3
London Pensions Fund Authority, where paid for employment with former GLC or ILEA.	Government	Note 3
London Transport Executive	Non-Government
Metropolitan Police Fund	Government	Note 3
NAFFI	Non-Government
National Assembly for Wales (Assembly Members)	Non-Government
National Assembly for Wales (employees)	Government
National Health Service paid by CAPITA or the Paymaster Generals Office paid by a Local Authority	Non-Government Government	Note 1 Note 3
National Insurance Retirement pension	Non-Government
National Savings Bank	Government	Note 3
National Environment Research Council	Non-Government
Northern Ireland Assembly - employees	Government
Northern Ireland Assembly - members (MLA's)	Non-Government
Northern Ireland Government pensions	Government	Note 3
Palestine Govt	Non-Government
Parliamentary Contributory Fund (Parliamentary Pension & Salary Acts 1972, 1976, 1978)	Non-Government
Police Pensions (including Metropolitan Police Fund pensions and Transport Police pensions)	Government	Note 3
Port of London Authority	Non-Government
Post Office	Non-Government
RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary)	Government
RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary)	Government	Note 3
Royal Engineers Officers' Widows Society	Non-Government
Royal Household (Privy Purse)	Non-Government
Royal Warrant Widows	Non-Government	Note 2
Scottish Education Dept paid by Scottish Office Superannuation Division	Government
Scottish Assembly (Members - MSP's)	Non-Government
Scottish Assembly employees	Government
Scottish Executive	Government
Social Workers Pension Fund	Non-Government
Stevenage Development Corpn	Non-Government
Supplementary Indian Government	Non-Government
Supplementary Pension for Overseas Service (SPOS) paid by Crown Agents	Non-Government
TAVR Association Pensions paid by the Council of the Territorial Auxiliary and Volunteer Reserve Association Retirement and Death Benefits Plan	Non-Government
Teachers pensions general paid for service to a private or independent school	Government Non-Government	Note 3
Universities Superannuation Scheme Ltd	Non-Government
Western Health & Social Services Board	Non-Government
Widows and widowers of persons whose service was "in the discharge of functions of a governmental nature" paid by Central Government paid by a Local Authority or the Government of Northern Ireland.	Government Government	Note 3

Notes

1. For claims under Germany and Yugoslavia DTAs this is a Government type pension.
2. Refer to Technical Advice Group any claims under the Germany and Yugoslavia DTAs.
3. This pension is "Non-Government" if the claim is under the DTA with

• Antigua (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Barbados (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Belize (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Brunei (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Burma (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Greece (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Grenada (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Israel (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Jamaica (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Kenya
• Kiribati (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Malawi (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Montserrat (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Namibia (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• St Kitts & Nevis (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Sierra Leone (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Solomon Islands (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• South Africa (Subject to tax condition in treaty - but only until 5 April 2003. After 5 April 2003 this is a Government pension)
• Swaziland
• Tuvalu (Subject to tax condition in treaty)
• Zambia (Subject to tax condition in treaty)

In all cases you should refer to the guidance dealing with the country in question.

4. CAPITA is a private company that has won a number of contracts to
   pay pensions to public sector workers. Care will be needed where an
   application for relief from UK tax shows CAPITA as the payer of the
   pension.

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[allanb]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]Perhaps they were replying specifically to John Ross who is a Britanique ,presumably and who has a Government pension.

Under what circumstances can you envisage a British person completing Sec VII?[/quote]

I already explained that...

[quote user="allanb"]Section VII applies to anyone who has income which is not taxable in

France because of a treaty; some British residents in France have income

from countries other than the UK.[/quote]

In any case the statement is plain wrong, no matter whether they think JR is British or Mexican.

[Jay]

Can anyone enlighten me as to what is meant by “Real Property Income” (Revenus fonciers imposables) and why it should be quoted on the attachment to the letter as an amendment this year?   Also I am still not sure of what is meant by “Incomes assessed to social levies”?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Jay"]Can anyone enlighten me as to what is meant by “Real Property Income” (Revenus fonciers imposables) and why it should be quoted on the attachment to the letter as an amendment this year?   Also I am still not sure of what is meant by “Incomes assessed to social levies”?[/quote]

That (my bold italics) sounds like a poor translation of "real estate income" using an american version of babelfish.[:-))]

I think (but I'd need to see the original French) that "Income assessed...." again is a poor translation, in this case of "income subject to social levies"

But without seeing the two versions side by side it's hard to tell for sure.  Have you ever tried translating something using Google, then putting it back into it's original language.  It's quite telling.[:-))] 

[Jay]

Hi Coops, that's from the letter I uploaded HERE at the start of this thread.

Si vous avez des revenus fonciers, mentionnez les au cadre III.... and ...

Mentionnez au cadre Vlll les revenus soumis aux contributions sociales (CRDS).

That was the tax office translation, not mine!

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Jay"]Hi Coops, that's from the letter I uploaded HERE at the start of this thread.

Si vous avez des revenus fonciers, mentionnez les au cadre III.... and ...

Mentionnez au cadre Vlll les revenus soumis aux contributions sociales (CRDS).

That was the tax office translation, not mine!
[/quote]Sorry, yes, you did post it - I was just having trouble finding the right bits from the Google-ese!!

IMO:

Revenue fonciers is income from property

Revenus soumis aux contributions sociales is revenue subject to CRDS

 

EDIT : Sorry, Jay, but no, I never thought you had come up with that - I did realise that it was the tax office -appologies if I gave the wrong impression.  One of the things that has annoyed me from the beginning of this was that they've just used a computerised translator for this, not a British native speaking one.