How the World has changed since 9/11

[Viv]

No doubt everyone will remember where they were when they heard about / saw on TV the terrorist attack on America. I certainly can recall the events unfolding on my TV and feeling utter disbelief at what I was witnessing.

The World has certainly changed a great deal since then.

There is an article in the Mail today by the Historian, Correlli Barnett, which I have found very interesting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/newscomment.html?in_article_id=404558&in_page_id=1787&in_a_source=

I realise that the fact that it is the Daily Mail and that many Tory politicians admire Mr Barnett, may be reason enough not to read it for some of you [:)] but have a look if you have time.

 

 

[Rosebud]

That's an interesting and well written article.

There's been a lot of media attention to this in the past weeks and months.  My OH and I watched a documentary called 'Loose Change' the other week.  It's made along similar lines to Fahrentheit 9/11 by Michael Moore, and presents some interesting and compelling material.  Obviously it's heavily biased, as the Moore movie is, but it certainly makes you think long and hard about the events of that day, and the reulting changes in the world.

That aside, my thoughts are with the relatives today.......

 

 

 

[Lori]

With CNN re-broadcasting the entire event (right now), it still makes the tears flow in absolute astonishment and sadness.

 

[Christine Animal]

Yes...

 

[Meg]

  Did anyone watch the first part of 'The path to 9/11' last night. It was very long and complex but at the same time shocking. All the info of what was going on before hand that we didn't even know about, going back to 1993. Glad i recorded it as i think i need to watch it again. The second part is on tonight. (BBC2)

Louise

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="louweezel"]  Did anyone watch the first part of 'The path to 9/11' last night. It was very long and complex but at the same time shocking. All the info of what was going on before hand that we didn't even know about, going back to 1993. Glad i recorded it as i think i need to watch it again. The second part is on tonight. (BBC2)

Louise

[/quote]

I would like to point out that this has been discredited in the U.S.  It is full of lies and there are threats of lawsuits over the liberty taken with the truth.

PG

[Meg]

Yes but they would say that!

It also had a disclaimer at the start and end of the film. It wasn't a documentary, so i wasn't taking it all as 100% accurate. It's was just interesting about how much we didnt know about, even if events were not entirely as shown, there was still a lot going on.

Chances are we never will know the exact story. Too much propaganda going on, from all sides.

Louise

[Viv]

My own view is that nothing could justify that act .

However, I am convinced that the action taken in response to it has opened a Pandora's Box .

[Lori]

I don't get BBC channels, so I couldn't watch it.  However, I have read about all the hoopla it has caused, including dozens of letters from officials threatening to file lawsuits against ABC.

I didn't see the latest film released about the flight that crashed by the Pentagon either.  I wanted to, but nobody wanted to go with me and I didn't want to go by myself.  I see there is another one being released in France on Sept. 20th. 

I find it so amazing that large numbers of people (and it seems to be growing every day) will go to extreme lengths to kill as many innocent people as possible.  But I guess that is another can of worms.

[Most Holy]

[quote user="louweezel"]Yes but they would say that!

It also had a disclaimer at the start and end of the film. It wasn't a documentary, so i wasn't taking it all as 100% accurate. It's was just interesting about how much we didnt know about, even if events were not entirely as shown, there was still a lot going on.

Chances are we never will know the exact story. Too much propaganda going on, from all sides.

Louise

[/quote]

I confess that I generally do NOT like "docudramas" because they blend fact and fiction and simply make up stuff.

But PATH TO 9/11 was far worse than any docudrama in recent memory. For example, it shows a scene in which Clinton National Security Adviser Sandy Berger

refuses to give the order to capture or kill bin Laden, even though the spooks had him in their sights. Only problem: it never happened. Another example (of many): the movie blames

American Airlines for ignoring a warning on their computers

about Mohammad Atta boarding their flight. But in fact the warning came

up on US Airways' computers for his Portland flight; American at Logan

had nothing to do with it.

There is "propaganda", yes. For example, Oliver Stone's JFK was clearly a docudrama with a strong point of view. But then there is sloppiness, which is inexcusable. And even more so when dealing with an event like 9/11.

I'm afraid it was a piece of sorry tripe, on the level of, say, claiming that TonyBlair had personally ordered the assassination of Princess Di, and the BBC ought to be ashamed of having broadcast it.

[Cassis]

But if Path to 9/11 didn't stretch the facts beyond breaking point it wouldn't make such good entertainment, would it?  It would lose part of its shock factor.  As if the whole event wasn't shocking enough already.

[Viv]

But the truth is shocking enough.

Edit .sorry you edited as I was writing.

[Cassis]

Sorry, Diva - I realised that what I posted originally might be misinterpreted, if I didn't add that!

[Meg]

[quote]

But PATH TO 9/11 was far worse than any docudrama in recent memory. For example, it shows a scene in which Clinton National Security Adviser Sandy Berger

refuses to give the order to capture or kill bin Laden, even though the spooks had him in their sights. Only problem: it never happened. Another example (of many): the movie blames

American Airlines for ignoring a warning on their computers

about Mohammad Atta boarding their flight. But in fact the warning came

up on US Airways' computers for his Portland flight; American at Logan

had nothing to do with it.

[/quote]

Problem is MH, how do we know what the truth is. How do we know that such things never happened? Just because the American government said so?? This is what made it interesting, seeing it from a different perspective.

Louise

[TWINKLE]

I just got back from dinner with some friends (french) and half way through our apero, wine fuelled meal my (french) husband bought up the subject of the terrorist attack that took place on the 11th of September 2001 (I detest the 9/11 title). 

 I then asked everyone to recount where they were and what they were doing on that day, and what they thought really happened.  What followed was utter bedlam!  Everyone talking at the same time - voices raised trying to get themselves heard, and quite a few complot conspiracy theories.  So much paranoia - I was shocked. 

I decided it was time to drastically change the subject.  But how? 

I picked up the huge platter of local cured hams and saucisson that was on one of the counters in the kitchen and walked around the table wafting it under their gallic noses and after thirty seconds the conversation was back to food and wine! 

Thank God!  Who knows what would happen in this country if ever they ran out of cake!*

 

 

*See Marie-Antoinette a long time ago when they ran out of bread!

 

[PossumGirl]

I was wondering if anyone watched the special on Arte last night that had a bunch of short films from international filmmakers on the subject?  Other than the one from Mexico (pretentious) and Sean Penn's from America (even more pretentious), they were quite fascinating and made some good points.  I particularly loved the one from Burkina Faso, and wish it had been longer.

PG

[Miki]

[quote]Thank God!  Who knows what would happen in this country if ever they ran out of cake![/quote]

Well here they would eat crepes !!

I know what you mean though, many French love a good gossip based on

conspiracy about an event. And no matter how many facts you throw at

their thoughts, they will find yet another conspiracy to muddle your

actual facts...don't you just love 'em !

 

[Most Holy]

[quote user="louweezel"]

Problem is MH, how do we know what the truth is. How do we know that such things never happened? Just because the American government said so?? This is what made it interesting, seeing it from a different perspective.

Louise

[/quote]

At the risk of being simplistic, we DO know because there was a commission that took testimonies under oath from a number of independent witnesses, etc.

Now I'm not saying that we know what is NOT in the Official Commission's Report, but we certainly know what IS in it.

The American Airlines vs US AIR confusion is just one of the many deplorable mistakes due to laziness and lack of adequate fact checking.

To return to my earlier example, if I pen a docudrama on the death of Princess Di, one advertised as the "real truth" as it were, it is certainly okay, though controversial, to hint at a conspiracy (if I so choose), but it is NOT okay to show that her car crashed in Berlin, or to create a scene showing Tony Blair ordering her assassination.

Or do you support that sort of rewriting of known facts?

[Deimos]

louweezel wrote: "Did anyone watch the first part of 'The path to 9/11' last night"

I see that the film was made by a member religious right wing organisation. Apparently the BBC did not realise this when they purchased it. The director of the file is a bit more than just a "member" as his father founded the organisation (Ywam)and he is a very active participant. Ywam is a fundamentalist evangelical organisation. I did not see the program but given the background of those making it I would question whether hey were searching for "the truth" or just using the film as a platform for their own beliefs.

Ian

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="Deimos"]I did not see the program but given the background of those making it I would question whether hey were searching for "the truth" or just using the film as a platform for their own beliefs.

Ian[/quote]

Sadly, in the U.S., 9/11 has been used as a powerful political tool by the right wing. Anytime that someone from the left says anything at all, the right just starts chanting "9/11-9/11-9/11" as if it is some kind of protective mantra.  If anyone questions the government's anti-terrorist policies, they are "handing the country over to the terrorists," etc.

The sad thing about films like "The Path to 9/11" is that there are a certain number of voters who will begin to believe the propaganda, and will, sheep-like, follow along without questioning until it is too late.

PG

[Meg]

 Still for me i found it interesting to see things from a different viewpoint. It made me think. But as i said before there is too much propaganda going on on all sides.

I haven't read this properly yet, but will be interesting now i have seen the film.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

Louise

[Hoddy]

I found Gore Vidal's interview on the Today programme on Radio 4 very interesting. He reminds me of the older, principled USA that I used to admire so much. It was a bit like being doused with cold water after some of the sickly sweet coverage of the anniversary.

Interesting though it may be to talk about how and why the September 11th outrages occurred I think we really ought to be standing back and taking a global look at where we are now.

An American friend said to me a few years back that anyone who was good enough to do the job of president didn't want it and I think that may be true.

Hoddy

[Beryl]

One of my favourite books  is Dear America, letters from the Vietnam War, which as also made into a film.

It is incredible to sense the change in tone as the war drifted on.  One young man wrote words to the effect that ' I would rather fight Communism in Vietnam than on Main Street, NY'. Later on in the book it was '...I don't know why we are here....fighting an enemy we can't see ... people who don't want us here'.

Of course even after the Americans lost, they did not have to fight communism on the streets of Main Street and the Cold War was mainly fought via propaganda and trying to win over hearts and minds eg West Berlin.

What a pity that the current administration in the US and UK could not try a little harder in this respect. Imagine what a coup it would have been for the USA if they could have influenced in a positive way an Islamic country without having to attack them first. Surely, Turkey with its EU aspirations would have been an ideal candidate as they are more tolerant / Western to start with? I know that historically the USA have wooed Turkey but if I was Bush I'd have made them my new best friends! 

[PossumGirl]

As tragic as the attacks themselves were, the loss of an opportunity  is even more so.  As a country, the United States had an amazing amount of good will and political capital on 9/12.  In less than a year we had squandered all of it. I like to imagine what the world would be like today if our government had instead used that capital for building bridges to peace...

PG