Human rights and Islam

[tegwini]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7848138.

Yes - awful stuff, on today's BBC news :  the Taleban is destroying girls' schools as, for them,  Sharia Law forbids the education of girls.

My theory that the Arab/Muslim world is so backward,  is because they often, or even usually, depending on which country is considered, refuse or are reluctant to use the skills, talent, education or even the intelligence of half the population - females.

Tegwini

[woolybanana]

This is only one radical and unloved branch of Islam, interpreted in ways that are frowned on by most Muslims. Rather as if all South Africans of the apartheid regime were shambock carrying, African haters who believed that kaffirs should all be kept on reserves and offered only limited education as their brains were inferior.

[tegwini]

Yes, BUT apartheid no longer exists - they voted it out!

Fat chance that Islamic men in 'unloved branches of Islam' will change  their  medieval and cruel attitudes and actions,  and come into the modern world - and some of them in the UK too. 

Tegwini

 

[Gluestick]

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3765

Sadly, "Human Rights" insofar as many british Muslims are concerned means doing what they desire: and demonstrating energetically if others - with equal rights under the EHR Act - seek to enter honest debate and differ in perspective.

 

[Théière]

[quote user="tegwini"]

My theory that the Arab/Muslim world is so backward,  is because they often, or even usually, depending on which country is considered, refuse or are reluctant to use the skills, talent, education or even the intelligence of half the population - females.

Tegwini

[/quote]

I think that is a bit harsh Tegwini, The medical advances that the Muslim and Arab world made also the study of other sciences whilst European's were living in mud huts is amazing. Cataract surgery in the 13th century!

We are talking about a very small proportion of the Muslim world perpetrated by fanatics, lets keep it in proportion.

[tegwini]

Not really TP

"whilst European's were living in mud huts" quote Teapot. 

Europeans were not all living in mud huts, in fact they were building the great gothic cathedrals and castles all over western Europe at that time, as well as starting the beginnings of freedom (Magna Carta, parliament, codification of laws),  arts,  learning- universities,  trade, commerce and exploration.... 

Some Muslim scholars were advanced in maths, medicine and astonomy at this time.  And some moved to western Europe to teach.

 But since then ???

Tegwini

 

[tegwini]

Spot on Gluestick

A major source of annoyance/anger for most.

And,  many fear for the future of Europe.

Tegwini

[Boiling a frog]

Do you have any idea who Geets Wilder is or what the film which was to be shown is about.I bet not.

The film is a racist rant, totally unbalanced.  

[Gluestick]

Of course, what we now call The Middle East was part of the Ottoman Empire for a long period until Turkey as an Axis power with Germany, lost WWI.

The Ottoman's were not noted for their encouragement of scholarship in the "Serf" parts of their empire.

At a time when Europe was throwing up huge advances in science and logic, The Mid-Orient was a feudal society.

The Turkish rulers were good at building Seraglios, though!

[;-)]

[Dog]

The Muslim world gave much learning to the world.

They still retain many useful laws that the rest of the world especially in the current economic state could and would have benefited from.

The refusal to allow interest to be made on money is a basic and very good law.

Tithing to charity is also good.

The Islamic world may seem very old fashioned, from another age - by modern first world standards.

Can you imagine if in the middle ages some aliens arrived to show the europeans the error of their ways - I do not think they would take to it kindly.

Just as we would not always accept Muslim standards perhaps we should allow them to do what they want in there own country.

The idea that all countries should be true democracies is fallacy - UK for instance is not truly democratic and is closer to being a Stalinist regime.

Live and let live.

PS Eventually an islamic Emily Pankhurst will arrive, she may though find it hard to find a horse race to protest at.

PPS Did you realise that lingerie sales in islamic countries are very high - makes you think?

 

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

Do you have any idea who Geets Wilder is or what the film which was to be shown is about.I bet not.

The film is a racist rant, totally unbalanced.  

[/quote]

Then you would lose your bet.

I watched the whole film early on and have been following the matter since day one.

 

[tegwini]

Yes Dog

Lots wrong with our society,   but much prefer our western 'decadence'  (even though some think I am stuffy/prudish)  to what is on offer there - and they seem to agree and many, many of them want to come here, even illegally.   Not many illegal western immigrants in their countries ! 

Stonings and amputations as punishment sounds somewhat grim to me.   At least we can moan about the state and its officials without ending up in trouble.

Tegwini

[tegwini]

'The Turkish rulers were good at building Seraglios, though!'   Gluestick

 

Yes, and the offer of 80 virgins for killing the enemy (us) also sounds as if some had/have a huge interest in  carnal desires rather than spiritual ones!

Tegwini

[woolybanana]

And leaving mentally troubled people on death row for 20odd years is humane I suppose. As is allowing people to rot in alcoholic stupor because we have not got the sense to control the sale. And both young women and men behaving like bitches on heat and having kids left right and centre by any number of partners.

We owe much of our scientific and mathemtical basis to Islam, Tegwini, just as an example.

And if you do not believe that the Blue Mosque in Isphahan is one of the wonders of the world, then you have missed out somewhere.

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

And leaving mentally troubled people on death row for 20odd years is humane I suppose. As is allowing people to rot in alcoholic stupor because we have not got the sense to control the sale. And both young women and men behaving like bitches on heat and having kids left right and centre by any number of partners.

We owe much of our scientific and mathemtical basis to Islam, Tegwini, just as an example.

And if you do not believe that the Blue Mosque in Isphahan is one of the wonders of the world, then you have missed out somewhere.

[/quote]

 

You forgot about locking up young girls who were pregnant(Magdalene sisters) . Not allowing blood transfusions, not allowing ,until recently, marraige outside the faith,not taking any action whatsoever against priests abusing young boys and girls, in fact obstructing justice by moving them outside the jurisdiction of the courts.

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Then you would lose your bet.

I watched the whole film early on and have been following the matter since day one.

 

[/quote]

 

So at least you agree that it is a racist rant

[tegwini]

Would you prefer public executions, stonings and summary convictions by ignorant clerics ??

Sadly, some problems in our society  are problematic and seem insoluable- but people have their choices - and our society  partly because of individual rights has produced much of benefit to the world. In fact most of the inventions and discoveries - some perhaps not welcome to some people!

The existence of booze- or not, I am not too concerned with as I do not enjoy it anyway, but at least we are not hypocrites about it and sell it openly - in the middle east it is still available, in spite of Muslims supposedly not drinking alcohol. 

We do not owe that much of our scientific discoveries to Islam, admittedly some maths, but that would have been developed anyway. Again- what have they produced since then of value to the world ?   And what happened that  most became part of the third world?

I do not accept that I have missed much in Isphahan,  I prefer to travel where there is some respect for women.  Santa Sophia in Istanbul yes - was built as a Christian cathedral in the Byzantine style and when conquered by the Moslems it was used as a stable!   

Wonders of the world -  St Peter's in Rome,  any gothic cathedral -  Rheims, Notre Dame, Salisbury ...

Tegwini

ps you sound like an old puritan WB- bit different from some of your  recent posts!

[Dog]

 

Islam contributed much to science - starting with alcohol, I'll drink to that!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Inventions

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Dog"]

They still retain many useful laws that the rest of the world especially in the current economic state could and would have benefited from.

The refusal to allow interest to be made on money is a basic and very good law.[/quote]

Nice idea.

The reality however is that all those lovely Petro-Dollars slushing around the World's financial system do indeed earn "Interest": it is disguised as "Profit".

That's why Zero Bonds were created.

[quote]Tithing to charity is also good.[/quote]

Which is also a core of all Abrahamic religions and faiths including Christianity and Judaeism.

[quote]The Islamic world may seem very old fashioned, from another age - by modern first world standards.

Can you imagine if in the middle ages some aliens arrived to show the europeans the error of their ways - I do not think they would take to it kindly.[/quote]

A common misapprehension: whilst on the surface, Westerners have this fuzzy concept of Muslims living in dusty lands, clad always in flowing robes and abiding by one central Islamic code, the reality is starkly different.

Saudia, Dubai, The Emirates and the Gulf states in particular enjoy a thoroughly modern infrastructure and are plugged into the global financial and commercial village.

Trouble is, away from these developed minor areas, the rest is basically feudal.

[quote]Just as we would not always accept Muslim standards perhaps we should allow them to do what they want in there own country.[/quote]

Agree: trouble now is they want to apply these standards to Western states they happen to have migrated to!

At the expense of those whose country it was originally!

 

[tegwini]

Dog

 Distillation of alcohol  - Ironic or what ?

Trouble is, most of the inventions/developments/whatever  that count  have come from the West.  Sadly, to get back to my original post most  females get a raw deal in countries controlled by radical, and even less than radical forms of Islam.

Tegwini

 

[Dog]

[quote user="tegwini"]

Dog

 Distillation of alcohol  - Ironic or what ?

Trouble is, most of the inventions/developments/whatever  that count  have come from the West.  Sadly, to get back to my original post most  females get a raw deal in countries controlled by radical, and even less than radical forms of Islam.

Tegwini

 

[/quote]

Women don't do to well in the West either - for instance they are losing their jobs quicker than men in UK at the moment.

The earlier mention of zero interest bonds would be of great interest to the majority of muslims in non petro-lands.

It is worrying in the pecking order of asian immigrants to the UK the muslims are the most vociferous yet they are at the bottom of the pecking order. There are now Muslim imposed No Go areas.

I must admit I prefer Hindu philosphy to Islamic.

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="Gluestick"]

Then you would lose your bet.

I watched the whole film early on and have been following the matter since day one.

 

[/quote]

 

So at least you agree that it is a racist rant

[/quote]

Far from it!

It is essentially, a reaction to the creeping Islamification of Western Europe.

Unfortunately, some European states, including the UK, have become significantly liberal as a result of socialism. And these states are ignoring the rights and desires of a majority of their original citizens in the mad panic to demonstrate just how open-minded and truly liberal and unbiased they are.

Perhaps we can title this the "Multicultural Ethic" as a replacement for the earlier Protestant version!

[;-)]

However, my original central plank was that if some members of the Lords wished to meet Wilders, watch his film and discuss his perspective, then in an apparently democratic state which, in theory, enjoys freedom of speech and all provided the film has not been proscribed (and even if it had been proscribed), then the ladies and gentlemen attending the meeting and screening would have been hopefully rather better informed afterwards and thereby enabled to reach a more balanced (and informed) conclusion.

To react in the way Lord Ahmed did, is wholly disingenous.

i.e. Law makers have to accept HIS and the Muslim Council's view that anything is "Racist"; "Blasphemous" and etc.

Interesting to me, that Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and Mao encouraged their sycophants to destroy books and knowledge too.......................

As did the Vandals, the Moors, The Mongols and indeed most ill-informed mobs and rabble.

I well remember being hectored by a relative about how Dan Brown's book, the Da Vinci Code was "Satanic" and "Blasphemous. I asked him if he had actually read it. "Heaven forbid!" he said, "It's blasphemous!"

My vicar and I discussed it with much merriment. Having, naturally, first of all read it.

We agreed that not only was it an awful novel but hugely inaccurate in terms of established fact.

I am becoming increasingly irritated by the abuse of "isms" and "ists" used as perjuratives in order to stifle open and fair debate.

Particularly so with the systems of apparent jurisprudence and government.

For example a church of England vicar could easily be indicted on a criminal charge for following Christian principles; he could be summoned for both a "Race Hate" and a "Homophic" hate crime! after the last amendments to the Criminal Justice Act.

One final comment worthy of mention: most Islamic states are comprised, in terms of majority of population, of illiterate and quasi-literate peasants, easily inflamed and led and lacking in actual knowledge of Qur'an and its teachings and tenets.

Their beliefs are invariably force-fed by Mullahs who themselves do not necessarily enjoy any significant level of scholarship.

 

[tegwini]

Thank you Gluestick

And, well put too. 

We moan about the state of our governments - France UK ... but at least we can do that and not fear imprisonment.  

Another example  to illustrate the backward nature of some Islamic states is the  missionary couple in the Gambia who both got a year's hard labour for sending emails that criticised the Muslim state.  

 That's why so many in the west object to the spread of Islam in Europe.

Regards

Tegwini

[Gluestick]

Except:

[quote]

Particularly so with the systems of apparent jurisprudence and government.

For example a Church of England vicar could easily be indicted on a criminal charge for following Christian principles; he could be summoned for both a "Race Hate" and a "Homophic" hate crime! after the last amendments to the Criminal Justice Act.[/quote]

Those of us concerned with Civil Liberties are deeply concerned about gagging of free speech and unfair accusations.

Brigitte Bardot for example in France was charged and fined for speaking out, last year.

This prevention of free and open debate deeply concerns me.

As a further example, the attempts to prevent  David Irving (The Holocaust Denier) and Nick Griffin from addressing the Oxford Union in 2007 is another example.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-uprising-against-facism-students-storm-oxford-union-debate-760584.html

Understandably, he (Irving) was ripped to shreds!

 

 

[tegwini]

Yes Gluestick

This loss of civil liberties reminds me of medieval trials where it was not unusual for a society misfit to be charged, convicted and executed on a spurious charge of witchcraft.  Parallels,  I think with some of the recent cases of stonings in Islamic states. 

I do think that there should be some limits to free speech, but even the 'historian' David Irving should be entitled to debate his subject - most realise that he is wrong.  I would have thought that the Oxford Union would be able to cope with him and actually debate the topic!

 but I do believe that we need to remember:

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

It is of course a problem in an uneducated society ruled by fear by autocrats, and if you mix in some fanatical ideas supposedly based on a religious doctrine and preached by Mullahs to people who fear to be different then you have the situation we have at present in some Muslim countries.  Dr Goebbels knew this and used fear, and repetition as they do.

How to keep free speech in Europe - if in fact do we still have it?

At least we can have a moan on this forum and not fear arrest - so far ?

Tegwini