Britain feeds prisoners better than patients: study

[NormanH]

Ok it comes from AFP so its perhaps anti-British, but it's in English in this link

[woolybanana]

Prisoners have rights but patients don't!

[Will]

The version I heard on BBC news is that people in prison benefit from more nutritious catering than people in hospitals, despite the budget for feeding prisoners being much smaller. The result is that prisoners get less choice and less variety, but because their meals contain a lot of things like vegetables, and starches like potatoes, they are healthier, and more filling. Which is pretty much what it said in Norman's link.

That makes a lot of sense, and could well apply to French hospitals and prisons too (not that I have any personal experience of either [:D] )

[Tony F Dordogne]

What really really hacks me off about this is that when I was heading up an Age Concern in  London borough we were having this argument with the local health authority and social services when older people were being discharged from hospital both malnourished and dehydrated which usually meant they were re-admitted almost immediately to get them fit and healthy (supposedly) and then they continued the downward spiral, leading to some of them even dying.

And what was done about it - nothing, not a clinical staff function and not a contractor function to feed the patients, many of whom couldn't recognise the food nor did some of them have the physical capacity to feed themselves.

What makes this even worse is that this argument has been rolliong around for the past 20 years that I know of and NO government, of whatever colour, has managed to really get a grip of it and neither has the national health service, it's just passing the buck between different departments, different managers within the local health authorities and in social services because the malnourishment of 'clients' still goes on in some local authority homes.

Absolutely makes my blood boil, when J's mother was in hospital in Epsom, Surrey - admitted from the nursing home where she was being cared for, seriously demented - unless a member of the family was there at meal times, she wouldn't have eaten, not just on one admission but every time she went in there!

[woolybanana]

Could there be a link to this? It might suggest that somewhere in the twisted mind of some committee in central government that it is cheaper to let them die or put them to sleep than to treat and care for them. 'them' being numbers in an age bracket rather than people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html

[Judith]

Maybe prisoners would shout more loudly if the food was not good - whereas those in hospital have no representative and often no energy to protest.  Being elderly and infirm would make then even less likely to protest.

When I was in hospital in England for a minor hand op about 10 years ago, I could ask if things were not right and indeed, I had to ask for meat to be cut for me, as it was put on the plate in one large lump and since it was my right hand being operated upon, I couldn't cut it with my left, nor indeed, hold anything with my right hand at that point.  If I had not been able to speak up for myself, I too would have gone hungry. 

I agree that it is appalling that this should still happen, even though the problem is well known.  So much for the vaunted improvements in the health service in England.

However, can anyone give any information about how this works in a French hospital, do nurses help to feed patients here, or is there also a problem in French hospitals?

[Clair]

[quote user="Judith"]... can anyone give any information about how this works in a French hospital, do nurses help to feed patients here, or is there also a problem in French hospitals?[/quote]

Nurses nurse.

If or when a patient needs help to eat or wash, there are aides-soignants (carers).

[NormanH]

I have spent some time in Hospitals in France some of it in intensive care.

I wasn't helped, but then I have not yet reached the stage where I obviously needed it.

On the other hand the time I spent in a rural Hospital (in Millau) I lost a good deal of weight as I was often away from the ward at meal times, and the meals weren't kept for me .(In small Hospitals it is common to be sent out to consultations with specialists at their 'cabinet' by ambulance..I was sent as far as Rodez to see a neurologist, and into the town for other visits)

[Will]

It's difficult to compare catering in hospitals and prisons. In prisons, meals are at set times and served en masse in one place with little choice. In hospitals there are a lot of different requirements and meals are usually individually delivered to the patients, with a wide choice, determined by both dietary needs and patient preference. The whole point of the story is that prison meals end up both cheaper and more nutritious than those in hospitals.

The idea that hospital patients are deliberately undernourished smacks far too much of conspiracy theory. Certain sections of the media take a perverse delight in highlighting individual shortcomings with NHS hospitals and making them appear the norm, whereas the French media is silent about poor hospital food, uncaring nurses, incompetent surgeons, 'superbug' infections, etc (which I know for a fact happen in France, as well as many good things).

As has been said many times before, it is impossible to generalise about standards in either French or English hospitals. There are some very good NHS hospitals and some very bad French ones. Assisting patients with meals comes down to care by individual nurses and ward staff rather than any general policy. No hospital in either country would deliberately allow a patient to go hungry in my opinion. It may be easier for French hospitals to provide such attention because of higher budgets, and thus higher staffing levels, but I am not too sure that there is a lot of difference in practice.

[Chancer]

Yes the same thing happened to me Norman on a couple of occasions, I cant for the life of me remember the details, I think perhaps I was whisked away for a scan or something.

When I asked, the nurses were able to rustle up something from the supplies that they had liberated for their pause gouter.

[plod]

I spent a week in hospital in France; the medical care was excellent but the food was pretty awful including the worst soup that I have ever tasted.

[Dog]

When I was in intensive care in France the medical service was incredible but the food - they have not yet discovered vegetarianism but you could get wine with every meal!

It's obvious what to do if you are old and infirm in UK do some crime and you'll be better looked after. It's my ultimate fallback pension.

[Scooby]

[quote user="Clair"][quote user="Judith"]... can anyone give any information about how this works in a French hospital, do nurses help to feed patients here, or is there also a problem in French hospitals?[/quote]

Nurses nurse.

If or when a patient needs help to eat or wash, there are aides-soignants (carers).

[/quote]

And that just about sums it up...too many nurses now consider themselves above 'caring' - they think that they are 'mini doctors'.

[Clair]

[quote user="Scooby"]And that just about sums it up...too many nurses now consider themselves above 'caring' - they think that they are 'mini doctors'. [/quote]

I have very little knowledge of nursing in the UK, apart from what I read in the press, but speaking about nurses in France (as both my sisters are nurses and have worked in a variety of hospitals, clinics, specialised units and privately for over 25 years): they have medical knowledge and responsibilities and that does not mean they automatically become insensitive to patients' needs.

In French hospitals, nursing homes and retirement homes, there is a specialised category of staff called aides-soignants. Their training, their duty and their responsibility is to take care of patients in all aspects excluding medical matters. This includes cleaning the rooms, changing the beds, washing and feeding those patients who need help.

You can find out about them here: http://www.infirmiers.com/ressources-infirmieres/nos-collegues/le-metier-d-aide-soignante.html (translation)

[Scooby]

Clair I know the what a carer is and what a nurse is.  My husband is an NHS consultant, I was a clinical scientist, my mother, aunt and grandmother were nurses, my daughter trained as a nurse (and walked out in disgust!) and my sister is a carer. I have also been a seriously ill patient who has been fed drugs but starved of food and basic personal hygiene. Any nurse who has a patient in her care and has no idea (nor, apparently, any interest) that her patient has not eaten - is, IMHO, incompetent and should be struck off.

[Scooby]

As an aside - the patients in the unit my sister works on pay £3k per week for their care.  They are fed instant smash, mince and corned beef.  She is constantly battling to get better food for them.  It's also interesting to note that a number of the 'better' students (i.e. those who were great with the patients) pulled out of the higher level qualifications because they were 'always getting the wrong answers' - i.e they were thinking too much like carers (what was best for the patients) and not enough like managers (what was cheapest and maximised profit).  Care is not a vocation anymore - it's a cost / profit centre. This is why the carers are on minimum wage and the owner (a property developer by trade) drives an Audi convertible.

[suein56]

[quote user="Scooby"] Any nurse who has a patient in her care and has no idea (nor, apparently, any interest) that her patient has not eaten - is, IMHO, incompetent and should be struck off.[/quote]

So, in your opinion, who's fault was it when I found myself seriously ill in a UK hospital where I was well fed - or would have been if I could have eaten/swallowed the food they were feeding me - but the drugs the consultant prescribed me were not given to me. After 24 hours the consultant was puzzled with my lack of improvement and was considering further tests when - upon asking me how I was finding taking the drugs - I managed to ask 'what drugs?' and the truth came out ...

Happily I made a full recovery. [:)]

Sue

[Scooby]

There's not enough information in your post to comment, Sue.