negotiating a prince in France

[Mattyj198]

is it customary to negotiate the price of a home in France, or is the price stated on the listing the only price?\\

Thanks

Matt

[Judie]

In a buyers market, there is always room for some negotiation, but stories of offers at 50% of asking price are unacceptable IMHO. They do nothing but alienate sellers who are often under immense pressure to sell.

Before anyone screams that I'm trying to maintain my commission by keeping offers unreasonably high, I'm a salaried estate agent with a fixed commission.

[Théière]

[quote user="Judie"]Before anyone screams that I'm trying to maintain my commission by keeping offers unreasonably high, I'm a salaried estate agent with a fixed commission.
[/quote]

Didn't know you were an estate agent but thanks for the warning [:D]

I thought thought this thread was about Prince's [8-)]

[Will]

[quote user="Théière"]

Didn't know you were an estate agent but thanks for the warning [:D]

[/quote]

Don't worry, she isn't dangerous

[quote user="Théière"]

I thought thought this thread was about Prince's [8-)]

[/quote]

Princes were abolished in France after the revolution.

If an offer of 50% of the asking price is accepted all it means is that the asking price was far too high.

Most agents know the sort of price that the seller is likely to consider and will not even put such an offer forward, moreover it will suggest the buyer is just one of the many timewasters that agents and sellers have to deal with. It's up to you to consider what you think is a fair price for you to pay and offer accordingly.

If you think the asking price is fair, then an offer at the asking price secures the sale. Offers below the asking price can always be trumped until the contracts are signed.

[Judie]

[quote user="Will"][quote user="Théière"]

Didn't know you were an estate agent but thanks for the warning [:D]

[/quote]

Don't worry, she isn't dangerous

[/quote]

Well, not all the time !!

[Quillan]

I have been a bit nieve about why high end properties are selling round where I live. It seems that people have been looking at especially English owned houses and then making offers anywhere up to 50% less than the asking price and getting it. Talking to a lady 'agent' in the village she explained that people didn't bother with the lower end ones when they know they can get fat discounts on the high end ones on sale from the English who are desperate to sell and get back to the UK (actually quite a few have just up and left handing their keys to agent on the way out). The French seem to think it's 'pay back' time for the English pushing prices up in the first place (yes I know its really the French who pushed the prices up but there you go).

The 'price trumping' comment. I was supprised when a couple staying with us who were house hunting were told, when they went to make an offer on a house, that somebody had already made an offer but it had been refused and that they were waiting for the people to make a second offer and therefore the agent could pass on our guests offer. Well I have never heard of this before and not being 'in the loop' of buying and selling a house in France for many years I was a bit gobsmacked but couldn't pass coment because I didn't know if this is correct or not these days. I would have thought as nothing had been signed the agent was obligied to pass on the the offer. It 'smelt' a bit strange to me, dodgy dealings of some sort but to who's advantage I couldn't work out, is this normal practice? 

[Théière]

Gazumping was rife when we were looking, one property went from 27,000 euros to 42,000 in the  space of a day (we didn't entertain it) and that was by the Mairies assistant! Who pushed up the prices? Mon dieu, ne pas les Anglais

[Will]

I think I am right in saying that 'gazumping' in the true meaning of the word is prevented by the French system, in that if the asking price (as shown on the agent's mandat)  is offered, then the sale is secured. So even if more offers are received above the asking price they cannot be considered - the first to the asking price gets the sale. But in the case of a private sale with no mandats it can be a different story.

When offers are lower, then there can be a bit of an auction. I don't think the agent is obliged to put forward all offers; I can understand that if an agent/buyer is waiting for an increased offer from the first in the line then they may not want to confuse things by bringing another bidder into the frame at that stage, but once the first bidder's revised offer is received then the other parties, including the seller, will be made aware that there is another interested potential buyer. Unfortunately most buyers don't believe it when there is other interest - they see this as an agent's ploy to get them to sign.

When there are several agents, not to mention notaires and private buyers involved, the whole thing can get rather fraught.

Regarding Q's comment, a lot of higher-priced British owned houses are overpriced. This may not necessarily be down to greed or unrealistic expectations, often a seller will need to realise a certain figure in order to move back and maintain their lifestyle. When they get no interest at their figure then they can reluctantly accept much lower figures in desperation. Don't regard this as the norm. There was a topic on another forum recently that said, even in the current market, the average discount on asking prices in France was 8%-10%.

Agents like Judie's will offer realistic valuations to start with - when there are sensibly priced houses on the books then anything over-valued will not get picked out and won't get viewings. And when they do eventually sell then it is often below the realistic valuation that they turned down many months previously. So if you are serious about selling, it pays to listen to the agent, and to steer clear of any exclusivity deals, however attractive the valuation and plausible the promises.

[Quillan]

I would have thought that the agent would be obliged either by law or morally to pass on any offer to the seller as long as no contract has been signed or offer accepted by the seller. In this particular case the agent told the perspective buyers what the offer was, which in some ways I think is a bit unprofessional. The perspective buyer (my guests) were happy to offer slightly under the asking price when the offer by the other buyer, they were told, was considerably less by about €30k. I thought this sounded very dodgy and my comment was that if it were me I would rather walk away because it just didn't feel right. I did point out that I was no expert and at end of the day it was up to them. My guests were American and to be able to await the outcome of a possible revised bit and the possibility of a purchase they decided to change their departure date back to the US and stay a couple of extra days in France. All I can say is it must of been an excellent house for the price to go to so much expense.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Mattyj198"]is it customary to negotiate the price of a home in France, or is the price stated on the listing the only price?\\

Thanks

Matt
[/quote]

No problem at all, one can offer any sum even a derisory sum which one would expect to be refused out of hand. In my own case I purchased at an amount of 60% of the asking price at the local notaires. However I was careful under the circumstances to purchase at a price which was slightly over 58.33% of the advertised offer for sale as I could see potential for a profitable renovation and I did not wish to have any problems in the future due to the appreciation in the value of the property.

However in the present circumstances I would think that buying a property from a UK citizen returning to the UK under financial duress at 50% of the "valeur venale" and encountering future problems would be remote.

la règle des 7/12èmes[:D]

Nous avons besoin de savoir exactement ce qui est permis et ce qui est défendu, la loi française dispose qu’il est défendu d’acheter un immeuble pour moins des 7/12 de sa valeur. Pour que la lésion fasse tomber le contrat de vente d’immeuble, il faut que la lésion subie par le vendeur dépasse les 7/12 de sa valeur. C’est une règle précise, et ainsi nous sommes fixés. La morale, évidemment, ne peut pas, elle, nous donner des règles de cette nature.

Check if you have time Article 1674 of the Civil Code.....note that "en sensu strictu" one is considering the "lesion" caused to the vendor.

[mint]

Silly me and I thought that, in order to negotiate a prince, you just have to kiss enough frogs!

Oops, no offence meant....my memory is so bad these days that I forgot for a moment which country I am living in.

[Chancer]

Pachapapa

Surely you are not saying that the valeur of a property is the sellers asking price?

I can however see your wisdom, by making sure that you were above the sept dixiemes there woud be no possibility of a controle.

As an aside can this ruling be applied retrospectively after an acte de vente, even several years after?

I paid the price asked by the liquidator but this was only the figure to settle the outstanding debts, definitely less than 7/12 of the market value.

[pachapapa]

No! the value of a property is usually the price at which it is sold. A valuation is a stab in the dark based on the merits of the property, etc, by an expert.[:)]

There are cases where the rule has been applied; the rule has been around since 1808 when Nap gave Joey a night off.[:)]

In a liquidation there may be a reserve price allowing withdrawal of the sale, not sure with a "Dutch Auction" not common in France but presumably a seller would buy it in and stop the sale if he was about to get fleeced. Dont worry..sounds like you got a good deal from the commissaire priseure.[;-)]

My west garden adjacent to the new summer lounge was previously a derelict building placed under liquidation and sold at FF 13 per square metre. Now incorporated in the same "parcelle" as the house.

[Mattyj198]

Ok guys, My bad!   I spelt price prince :-p   Oops!

Thank you for all your input,  I am not trying to get 50% off.  I have a set budget and the house I am looking at is about  5000 above,  I just wanted to know If I could talk them down that much.  In Canada we do it all the time,  I am not looking to screw anybody over but in Canada we always ask more expecting to be bartered with.   Thats all.

Thanks everyone

[Dog]

[quote user="Quillan"]I would have thought that the agent would be obliged either by law or morally to pass on any offer to the seller as long as no contract has been signed or offer accepted by the seller. In this particular case the agent told the perspective buyers what the offer was, which in some ways I think is a bit unprofessional. The perspective buyer (my guests) were happy to offer slightly under the asking price when the offer by the other buyer, they were told, was considerably less by about €30k. I thought this sounded very dodgy and my comment was that if it were me I would rather walk away because it just didn't feel right. I did point out that I was no expert and at end of the day it was up to them. My guests were American and to be able to await the outcome of a possible revised bit and the possibility of a purchase they decided to change their departure date back to the US and stay a couple of extra days in France. All I can say is it must of been an excellent house for the price to go to so much expense.[/quote]

I enjoy my drink but am worried about Q - all those years at the lodge and he cannot understand what real estate agents are up too?

They must have been artists if they were worried about perspective - perhaps the prospect of a further bid made the difference...

[Quillan]

See you bring up masons in yet another thread Dog, is it your intention to keep doing this especially when you know a mason has asked a question?

[Gardengirl]

Matty, people have always made offers on property in France, way before the current recession.

Make your offer; the seller will accept it or not. But leave yourself some 'wriggle room', so you can revise your offer upwards a little. But don't be tempted to keep doing this - and be honest when it's your final offer. Be ready to walk away if necessary. There are plenty of other houses out there, and another might suit you and your budget better - as we found out!

Good luck!  [:D]

[AnOther]

A while back I was talking to the Immo we bought through and she told me that they had actually refused to take on one or two properties because of ridculously optimistic price expectations by the sellers.

Some people need to wake up and smell the roses.

[just john]

A derelict property on offer recently was being discussed as being available for any offer, a knowledgable artisan cautioned that even if the agent accepted a low offer the notaire would correct it against a minimum scale of value, whatever that is presumably the offer ultimately has to be sanctioned by the Notaire.[geek]

[AnOther]

Was that a Notaires sale or perhaps probate (or whatever the equivalent is in France) as otherwise I don't see what business it is of a Notaire - or anybody - to dictate what price private property is sold at so long as no skulduggery is afoot.

[Chancer]

In my case my friend was tipped off and given the keys by the notaire that was going to market the property, the liquidator had set what I assume to be a minimum price to settle the outstanding debts. I cant be certain as my French was virtually non existant but I do know that unlike England where they are obliged to get the best price (supposedly!) to discharge the creditors and the remainder going to the owner/debtor, in France they are only obliged to raise funds to pay the outstanding debt. Given the stric controls on surendettement this is nearly always achieved.

We weren't supposed to know the price but my friend was/is a develeoper and had done a lot of business with the notaire and was also having a cinq à sept wit his secretary who tipped him off, he was given the keys to view before the property was marketed.

We were in fact stopping off to view the property in the last hour before my departure for my ferry home, it wasnt even for me but for another friend of his, when I saw the property, learnt the price and that the girl and her partner had already said no with only a cursory view of the outside as it needed to much work I siezed the opportunity and from that moment of impulsion my life took a very different turn to that foreseen.

My friend explained that we should go direct to the Notaires office and make my offer, he said it should be the full price, I had no problems it was a bargain, a 6 bedroomed hôtel/restaurant for the price of a second hand executive car.

The notaire after discussing with the liquidator the premature offer initially said that they wanted him to market it and invite sealed bids, we explained that I as leaving to travel the world for more than a year in exactly one weeks time (the truth) the offer had to be accepted there and then, to my relief it was.

There was no possibility of my returning for the compromis and acte de vente, I signed the preliminary forms and one giving my friend (who was only really an acquaintance power of attorney), the Notaire pointed out that we needed an interpreter which my friend did by saying "scene ear" several times, on my return I arranged for two bank drafts for the deposit and projected final payment, I didnt even know about other methods of sending money and in hindsight got a crap rate, mais bon, the pound was at its zenith [:)]

I read so often the very good advice given about do lots of homework before committing but as I never did that at school, before exams or even when getting French lessons here why change the habits of a lifetime [;-)]

I would say that it took 3 years of learning the language and repeatedly reading all the documents in the dossier from the notaire before I could be confident that I did indeed own the property and not my friend who had by that time revealed himself to be as a big a shark as most around here, there is indeed honour amongst thieves, sharks and Chancers [:D]

I reckon that I paid well under matket value as I now know well someone that had bought a virtually identical abandoned hôtel nearby two years before me and was delighted to have paid 50% more than I did.