Refunds of care home fees claim

[Frederick]

Having had a situation within the family of having to fight those who would insist care was deemed to be social care and not medical . And having a need to go legal with them to get them to accept responsibility for funding .

I hope everybody on the forum is aware of this and the September cut off  date for claims .. I believe even  if a relative  is no longer with us if a wrong decision was taken at the time re social or medical care requirement a claim can still be made .

http://www.freenursingcare.org.uk/home-care-fees.html?gclid=CLCHrLqOzrECFcVkfAod-38A1Q

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/337367/Residents-in-care-should-never-have-to-sell-their-homes

[Russethouse]

Some friends of mine claimed this even though the relative involved had died, but I have a feeling they started the process before the death of the person involved.

I don't know if that made a difference..

The claim was successful ....

[idun]

[quote user="Frederick"]Having had a situation within the family of having to fight those who would insist care was deemed to be social care and not medical . And having a need to go legal with them to get them to accept responsibility for funding .

I hope everybody on the forum is aware of this and the September cut off  date for claims .. I believe even  if a relative  is no longer with us if a wrong decision was taken at the time re social or medical care requirement a claim can still be made .

http://www.freenursingcare.org.uk/home-care-fees.html?gclid=CLCHrLqOzrECFcVkfAod-38A1Q

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/337367/Residents-in-care-should-never-have-to-sell-their-homes
[/quote]

 

This, as the expression goes, 'does my head in'. I simply lived in France too long and if I ever understood, 'the state MUST pay' thing..... I no longer do. I just think that people should be pleased that the children, grand children and great grandchildren are not expected to chip in if the parent cannot pay.

What the future holds with too many of us 'older' folk, makes me wonder. So at the moment, I find it terrible that people are wasting money fighting this cause and then winning or not. The winners, the lawyers, and even less money in the public purse to pay for the things that they should pay for.

I do understand that there are some people with nothing, and in France and the UK the state chips in. It somehow doesn't make it right to believe that the state must pay for everything. IF the state did, then income tax should be up to approx 60% for everyone and then the expectation of being looked after perhaps could be a possibility that I could consider.

[Russethouse]

If you read the first link it talks about the NHS and it's basic provisions. If people have a medical condition that means they are unable to care for themselves, either mental or physical, why should they pay?

This is the UK where we do have the NHS, maybe it's a bad system that needs altering, but under the current system I can't see why people with need should have to pay, whether they have savings or not.

[idun]

This is where we diverge. I think lots of these 'states' are just down to how feeble many of us will end up in old age. Our hearts continually ticking away (and sometimes with help?) and the rest is simply knackered and in all another ages, we would have been on our merry way. And what is medical care? Keeping someone comfy surely is not? We cannot and should not cure old age. There comes a point when it is simply down to keeping someone alive under any circumstances, people are not going to get better, they are going to get worse and die.

When the NHS started in 1948, it may have been a good idea then when life expectancy was far less, but who can afford it now? The NHS as far as I am concerned should prioritise everything up to old age and then we should be aware of what is left for us old folk. At the moment the ressources are not there for proper maternity care in many places, how can we be even discussing this when there are not beds available for mothers ready to deliver?????? Now that is something I can get riled and ready to campaign about. And before anyone says that that would be discrimination against the old............ mothers andt their babies are being discrimination against when they have insufficient ressources for them. They are the future, but apparently the rich old don't give a hoot, as long as they are kept going and going and going.

 And the accrued wealth, well, lots down to the madness of the property market, which still makes no sense to me either. And should someone be in a house that they paid £1500 for now worth half a million and not contribute towards their care......... I don't believe so.

 

[cooperlola]

I could ask you why people are subsidised for having babies when the planet has far too many people on it already, Idun, but I won't![:D][6]

I guess we all think old people cost more than they are worth until we are one of them and the decision is about ourselves as individuals rather than a concept.

[Rabbie]

While I agree that the NHS urgently needs reform (especially in reducing the numbers of well-paid bureaucrats) I do not agree that older people should just be left with the crumbs that are left over from subsidising single mothers with seven children with six different fathers. The older people are in general those who have worked hard and paid their taxes and NI contributions over a period of many years. Without their contribution the welfare state would have collapsed long ago. As a pensioner myself I have no objection to paying my share but I find it offensive when I see other old people forced to sell their homes while undeserving young girls are given subsidised housing that they do not look after.

I know the  vast majority of young people are hard working and doing their best. it is not them I am talking about - it is the feckless lazy ones that really get my goat.

rant over[:)] 

[Hoddy]

I paid NI contributions for 39 years. I shall take a very dim view of it if I am forced to sell my home to pay for my care should I ever need it.

Hoddy

[woolybanana]

Protest on your part, Hoody, will be seen as non-cooperation and you will be sedated up to the eyeballs so that someone can make the decision for you.

A couple of months ago an elderly cousin of mine became ill after having had a knee joint replaced and was found in a faint in her bedroom. Ambulance was called and she was whipped off to hospital immediately. Social services were also informed who arrived, took one look at her and said she should be in a home. Fortunately my cousin was able to tell them to b ugger off. Which illustrates the willingness of some to whip people out of their homes and into old people's death camps rather than take a broader view.

My cousin has made an excellent recovery from problems probably caused by hospital bugs and is now back at her house, with appropriate help and support from professionals and friends, though I suspect she is not yet getting enough physio for the knee. But she does seem to have given up the gin, which is a pity!

[Russethouse]

We are currently in a situation with my mothers care where out of her savings my mother pays  between £2800 - £3200 per month to an agency for her care - here's the rub: she has two carers four times a day and between them get around £700 a month out of that. The agency pay their petrol (though not at the rate the IR allow) and I guess a portion of their NI, the agency have to pay the Care Quality Commission for registration and for office space, but even so must be making something around £1500 a month out of one client! Despite that unless the agency are paid virtually by return post the agency  phone and say that unless the invoice is settled they will not be able to pay the carers .....a guilt trip! As it happens my sister and I field these calls, however that is not the case for many of the clients, so you have elderly, housebound clients being harassed.

Our actual carers are fantastic and we don't want to change them, but there must be something wrong with the system !

Idun: my mother is immobile, she cannot stand unaided, and when she does stand (holding on to a lollipop turntable) she can't stand straight, leave alone walk - do you honestly think she is just being made comfortable ? Her spine and thigh bone have crumpled, and her post operative history is such that it's unlikely that she would survive an operation, leave alone get through enough physio to make a substantial difference. On top of that she is very deaf and is losing her sight.  If she lived in rented accommodation and had no savings the state would pay her rent and fund her care, because my father wanted to be independent and worked hard to achieve that, she pays. So the money he earned was taxed when he earned it, taxed when he saved it and now has gone on funding my mothers care - where is the incentive to work hard in that ?

 

[woolybanana]

RH, do the county social services not provide paid carers?

[Russethouse]

Not for 'private funders' When my mothers savings get below £14000, then I think we have a choice of them providing care or having vouchers.....

[Hoddy]

I have a friend whose mother is in the same position as your mother RH. For her there is a complication that her late brother's children are getting impatient with her for spending what they see as 'their' share of the inheritance on her mother's care.

No wonder doctors are against euthanasia.

Hoddy

[Frederick]

[quote user="Hoddy"]I paid NI contributions for 39 years. I shall take a very dim view of it if I am forced to sell my home to pay for my care should I ever need it.

Hoddy[/quote]

I wonder how many people would accept it if having paid cash into an insurance company all their working lives.When things go wrong and they made  a claim they were told they were not covered  sell your house and pay up .

Its the same thing when a life's work of NI contributions you are  told are worthless when it comes to paying out for medical care ,in a nursing home , because the hospital has moved the patient on to unblock the bed !  

[idun]

I could easily be that person who is for want of a better word a slavvering mess now, or just about. When I was in my mid thirties I was told I had the risk of a degenerative illness, 50/50 chance. And for several years I was living with that real possibility and seeing a family member lose all faculites complete dependance. As it happened I was tested and don't have it. It made me think about my mortality and an horrific demise at a relatively young age ie maximum mid 60's. And all this to face up to at a rather young age.......... how one wants to live, once it starts. Or as I looked at it, burdonsome and not living. I have not changed my view on this.

I have no idea what other people's family members problems are. I know what has happened in my family and to friends families, in both France and the UK. And I know what I want for me.

Re NI contributions...... are they a magic well? The fund contributes towards the NHS, it  is there to cover possible benefits like unemployment and bereavement and most certainly Pensions. I would love to know how many years it takes to get every last penny paid in NI contributions from just the pension part alone, seven years? maybe less maybe  a little more. So where is this other money coming from. Beyond me.  I do prefer the french system where it is all split up into the various benefits.

 

[cooperlola]

Hmm.  Well, many still die before they get to pensionable age don't they (I know of five people of my own acquaintance to whom this has happened in 2012 alone)?  It's not the way insurance works, is it?  It's about mutual support - we all contribute what we can afford to support those who cannot afford the care, that is the way the welfare state works.  If there's not enough in the pot, then we need to pay more, that's the "bottom line" (if I may use once again an overused phrase) n'est-ce pas?  If my taxes and social contributions go up, I pay them, as I should, because one day it might be me who needs to be paid for out of the pot.  On the other hand, I might well be dead before I get to 66.

[Benjamin]

Idun seems to be a supporter of the Liverpooll Care Pathway.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161869/Top-doctors-chilling-claim-The-NHS-kills-130-000-elderly-patients-year.html

This, apparently, isn't an isolated report as I've seen it published elsewhere. Keep a very careful eye on your elderly relatives if they are admitted to hospital.

 

[woolybanana]

Unfortunately it is a logical step in NHS thinking. Save money by not treating people (actually it is called murder in this context). But then, the NHS is so big and so consuming of resources, maybe there should be a review of the 'free at point of entry' doctrine, to help avoid the 'assisted exit'.

[Benjamin]

It's only called murder woolyb if you can't find the right person to sign the death certificate, otherwise, carry on as normal and see how many more beds you can free up.

[Russethouse]

idun, You don't use your own contributions, through my working life I paid for people in need at that time (and actually I still do) and people working now are paying for those in need now, there is no individual pot.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Benjamin"] Keep a very careful eye on your elderly relatives if they are admitted to hospital.
 
[/quote]Remeber hospitals are full of ill people[:D]

[idun]

I could easily be that person who is for want of a better word a slavvering mess now, or just about. When I was in my mid thirties I was told I had the risk of a degenerative illness, 50/50 chance. And for several years I was living with that real possibility and seeing a family member lose all faculites complete dependance. As it happened I was tested and don't have it. It made me think about my mortality and an horrific demise at a relatively young age ie maximum mid 60's. And all this to face up to at a rather young age.......... how one wants to live, once it starts. Or as I looked at it, burdonsome and not living. I have not changed my view on this.

I have no idea what other people's family members problems are. I know what has happened in my family and to friends families, in both France and the UK. And I know what I want for me.

Re NI contributions...... are they a magic well? The fund contributes towards the NHS, it  is there to cover possible benefits like unemployment and bereavement and most certainly Pensions. I would love to know how many years it takes to get every last penny paid in NI contributions from just the pension part alone, seven years? maybe less maybe  a little more. So where is this other money coming from. Beyond me.  I do prefer the french system where it is all split up into the various benefits.

 

[Benjamin]

Idun

I can't quite understand (but that's not unusual for me with some of your posts) why you have repeated one of your postings from an hour or so ago??????

[Rabbie]

[quote user="idun"]

Re NI contributions...... are they a magic well? The fund contributes towards the NHS, it  is there to cover possible benefits like unemployment and bereavement and most certainly Pensions. I would love to know how many years it takes to get every last penny paid in NI contributions from just the pension part alone, seven years? maybe less maybe  a little more. So where is this other money coming from. Beyond me.  I do prefer the french system where it is all split up into the various benefits.

 

[/quote]As RH explained. your pension is paid from current NI payments. As Coops said a lot of people die before retirement age. They don't get a refund of NI payments even if they didn't go to hospital.  Also some people die people die shortly after getting their pension .

In answer to your question, NI payments in the UK are not ringfenced but go into general public funds so any shortfall is made up from other taxation or government borrowing

 

[idun]

[quote user="Benjamin"]Idun

I can't quite understand (but that's not unusual for me with some of your posts) why you have repeated one of your postings from an hour or so ago??????



[/quote]

LOL, just before 5 I was in my kitchen starting to prepare dinner and haven't come back on until now. I have no idea how that posted again, there was me and the cat in the house at the time, and my suspicion is that it was the cat wot did it. Although when I came back on this page wasn't up either, which I would have expected it to be if he had padded across the keyboard. Very strange.