powerdesal Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I have just had a look at the UK National grid site. wind generated electricity is 0.8 % of demand.Isn't wind power wonderful ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I think it just about criminal that so much is being put into wind power, especially on this island where 'tide power' is there to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Only another 480,252 need to be installed to meet the demand ( as long as the demand doesn't increase, or the wind drop )Surprisingly, the UK, at this moment, is exporting power to France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 The problem with wind generators is that they are dependent on a wind blowing. There are days when there is insufficient wind to produce any significant power. This can occur during high pressure cold snap in winter when the demand for electricity is very high. Perhaps the area that needs to be developed is generating using tidal flows. These are predictable and reliable so would justify the necessary investment for R and D to make this economic. Here in the UK we need to improve home insulation to reduce the amount of energy needed which would also contribute to a reduction in CO2 produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Rabbie, I agree, however I would add in 'run of the river' small scale hydro schemes and also nuclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 "The problem with windmills is that there are days when the wind does not blow" Just as the problem with coal fired, oil fired and particularly nuclear powered stations is that periodically there are technical problems that can take them off-line and in order to reduce these to a minimum there are extended periods of maintenance when they are taken off-line. There is not (to my knowledge at least) any system of power or energy generation that guarantees 100% operation and this oft quoted failure of wind is at best ill-conceived and at worst is put around by vested interests. To have a reliable power supply it is essential that there is polyvalence and putting all the eggs into wind power is as foolish as putting all the eggs into coal, or tidal. (Even the tides stop for around 3-4 hours a day.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Exactly, which is why a mixture of Nuclear, coal, gas , hydro and pumped storage is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre ZFP Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Another problem with wind is that you don't know what you're going to get and when you will get it so for load balancing a thermal station has to be running in less than maximum efficiency mode and fire up when the wind drops and throttle back when it's blowing so for that wonderful 0.8% contribution, how much do you knock off for the standby stations?Also the power varies as the cube of the windspeed, or to put it another way, halve the windspeed, get one eighth the power(somebody take my soap box away) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frecossais Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Driving through France I am amazed at the huge numbers of windmills I see that don't work. There's one at the Aire de la Somme on the A18 (I think) that I have never seen work in at least 2 years.What will happen to them when they are dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardengirl Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I think it's all a big confidence trick; people think they are being green, but big companies are just raking in massive profits so that countries can try to meet their targets. I wish that the money the UK government has spent/is continuing to spend had been put into installing thick insulation for houses throughout the land ; less energy would now be needed and householders would be spending less money on their energy bills. I've wished this for years. Win/win situation to my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Deciding on the amount of 'spinning reserve' necessary to cover the vagaries of the wind must be a nightmare for Grid Control. It was relatively easy in my day, only the loss of the biggest unit on line had to be considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Not only are wind turbines dependent on having wind to operate, if there is too much wind, then they cannot operate either.They will never satisfy energy requirements.For the moment, nuclear is probably the best solution, although that of course has its own set of problems.Over here in the states, I have seen some interesting solutions that contribute a little to easing the load. For example, i've seen solar panels on many lamps and traffic lights which would charge by day to be used at night. I imagine when they do run out of juice, the national grid system kicks in.There's heaps as individuals we can do to lessen the energy demands, and that should be the first priority. Prevention is better than cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre ZFP Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 PowerD, you wouldn't have a link to that UK National Grid page about the 0.8% would you? Not that I disbelieve you for a moment but I've got into an argument of sorts about wind power and I'm blowed (pardon the pun) if I can find it.To give an Idea of the level of argument I'm in, this numpty regards all things nuclear as the work of the devil and 'You just need to look at the station at Catternom (near the France/Lux border) to see all the radioactivity coming out! Ummm that will be steam from the cooling towers then....... I'm sure you get the picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 For those who know Bournemouth bay. and the Jurassic Coast There is a plan to site just under 300 out at sea . The cable is planned to come ashore at Barton on Sea . A trench will then be dug I imagine over the New Forest and connect with the National Grid at the Mannington sub station A lot of unhappy people here ..http://www.challengenavitus.org.uk/windfarm-animations.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 This link to the Guardian shows the hugely variable amount generated by wind turbines. The max figure was 10% with an average of 6%. Of course because the amount generated is so variable the carbon producing gas powered stations have to be running as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Green energy fail....[img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/57235000/jpg/_57235827_57235415.jpg[/img]There is no point worrying about being green IMO. Any environmental benefits produced in Europe are pissed away to insignificance compared to what goes on daily in China and India.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/06/china-flatten-mountain-lanzhou-new-area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 FFS Google Chrome is one of the most popular browsers available yet this forum refuses to work properly with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 [quote user="Pierre ZFP"]PowerD, you wouldn't have a link to that UK National Grid page about the 0.8% would you? Not that I disbelieve you for a moment but I've got into an argument of sorts about wind power and I'm blowed (pardon the pun) if I can find it.To give an Idea of the level of argument I'm in, this numpty regards all things nuclear as the work of the devil and 'You just need to look at the station at Catternom (near the France/Lux border) to see all the radioactivity coming out!  Ummm that will be steam from the cooling towers then....... I'm sure you get the picture[/quote]http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/The number of people who consider that the steam from cooling towers is smoke / pollution is unreal, the press don't help of course, always showing a power station with steaming cooling towers under a banner of ''pollution this or pollution that''edit: It's about 3.5% from wind at the moment, but the weather forecast is for high winds tonight.As an aside, when our children were very small they always called cooling towers ''daddies milk bottles'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Technically they're actually not wrong, as water vapour (which is what cooling towers emit for want of a better word), is the most dominant greenhouse gas. However, you are right, the media are trying to bark up another tree, and show these images as filthy pollution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I am sorry, but I cannot see how either wind or wave power will not affect the planet in a negative way.Both methods take energy out of either the winds or waves. This surely must have an effect - wind power will be decreased causing a change. Similarly wave power and patterns will be changed. The result changes to wind and sea patterns. There is no such thing as a free lunch, nor free energy.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I think any effects on wind and wave would be negligible. Certainly not as much as the pollution emitted via fossil fuels. I agree there's no such thing as a free lunch.The climate is changing, anyone with any intelligence can see that, the question is how much of an impact is man made? Deforestation and more CO2 emmissions will help heat the planet up, there's no doubt about that, it's basic physics. What we need is to open the window and let some of this CO2 out. Perhaps create one over the Antarctic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Of course the climate is changing, it's what the climate does and has done for millions of years, why should it stop now?Equally it's basic biology that plants need CO2, it helps them grow. No CO2 = no plants = no food.The planet has had warmer and colder periods in the past and will no doubt have warmer and colder periods in the future. To assume that mankind can radically affect that future is arrogance in the extreme. The climate was warmer in the recorded past, even during Roman times and I don't seem to remember learning about Roman 4 x 4s and power stations being the cause of any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre ZFP Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Many thanks for the link, it's good to have something to back up an argument but I think I will lose this one. Apart from the radio activity coming out of cooling towers we now have 'The water in the Mosel is 2 deg warmer downstream of the nuclear station' Yeah but that would be true if is was say a gas or coal power station. 'No, no, it's because it's a nuclear power station' Doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Pierre,It's virtually impossible to win against bigots with closed minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araucaria Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 [quote user="PaulT"]I am sorry, but I cannot see how either wind or wave power will not affect the planet in a negative way.Both methods take energy out of either the winds or waves. This surely must have an effect - wind power will be decreased causing a change. Similarly wave power and patterns will be changed. The result changes to wind and sea patterns. There is no such thing as a free lunch, nor free energy.Paul[/quote]Harnessing the tides will make the moon move further away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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