Perhaps we should reflect on this

[richard51]

Quillan, please let others browse the site at their leisure, rather that point them in a certain direction.

[Quillan]

Firstly Richard you opened the box so everyone has a right to say how they feel and use whatever information they can find to support their views. I have no doubt that some of the information in WiKi is not correct and the same can be said of many websites that deal with a particular issue (includng the one you gave a link to) and boy are there a lot of discrepancies amoungst those that deal with this particular subject and from both sides.

The other issue is should this thread ever have been allowed in the first place. This part of the forum was intially called a "Chat Room" specifically to deal with a group who where members at the time. It was then "down graded" to it's current name but its purpose is still the same "Place for members to catch-up.". It is not a place to have a discussion about these (very sensative) sort of things and there are specific websites that will accomodate these type of discussions.

As to me personally well I have only answered back when bullied. It would be so simple with my 'powers' to simply ban the person but I am not that childish nor am I in the habbit of abusing my position (although NickP seems to think differently for some reason for which I don't have a clue).

Anyway I shall not post on this matter or subject again as clearly it is a very biased thread and the rights of individuals to speak is clearly not allowed by yourself. I will however be monitoring it and my guess is it will die now and when it does and just so as not to confuse search engines and attract undesirables in the future it will be removed. To be honest I do regret my first posting and not removing the thread when it first appeared but I will let it run to its end and if it does get pulled straight away it won't be me doing it unless more abuse is thrown around.

[richard51]

Given the anti semitic actions in France at the moment I think it is a very relevant topic.

People should not be demonstrating against Jews but Zionists.

[Russethouse]

I have watched John Snow on his return from Gazza, very moving:

http://uk.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A7x9UnkENdZTKXsA6ul3Bwx.;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcxNzU1OQRfcgMyBGJjawMzb3U1bTdoOXNpc3NkJTI2YiUzRDMlMjZzJTNEdHUEZnIDeWhzLWlyb25zb3VyY2UtZnVsbHlob3N0ZWRfMDAzBGdwcmlkA1VvN0hGVldXUURLYnZBTVRRaGtuV0EEbXRlc3RpZANudWxsBG5fcnNsdAMxMARuX3N1Z2cDMARvcmlnaW4DdWsueWhzNC5zZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzM2BHF1ZXJ5A0pvbiBTbm93LCBJc3JhZWwgUGFsZW5zdGluZSBZb3UgVHViZQR0X3N0bXADMTQwNjU0NzIzMzQ2MwR2dGVzdGlkA251bGw-?gprid=Uo7HFVWWQDKbvAMTQhknWA&pvid=enMLAzE4OC48eLY8U8lzjQnFODYuMVPWNQT_5MZo&p=Jon+Snow%2C+Israel+Palenstine+You+Tube&fr2=sb-top&hspart=ironsource&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003¶m1=1¶m2=sid%3D2563da4c8d0ecbda47314da40b0bcb2d%26b%3DIE%26ip%3D86.136.242.186%26p%3Drocket%26x%3D28E3476F7F72120A%26dt%3DS934%26f%3D4%26a%3Drckt_app_14_30_ie&type=rckt_app_14_30_ie

Sorry about the link ....

[mint]

[quote user="richard51"]Given the anti semitic actions in France at the moment I think it is a very relevant topic.

People should not be demonstrating against Jews but Zionists.

[/quote]

Agree, dreadful and mindless................

In the UK too, BTW

[idun]

Richard51, I tried to watch that youtube video again and couldn't hack it. Droning on about the same old

Incidentally my Dad was posted to Gaza just after the war, so I literally have heard about it all, all my life.

If it boils down to it, I don't care anymore. I did in my teens, even maybe until ten or twenty years ago. If I'm a strange 'old' woman, then I was a strange young one, the only one of my peers who cared about so much that was 'political'. 

As I said, IF they wanted peace, they'd do something about it and if the palestinians believe that over running current Israel will sort anything out, it won't.

When the arab spring started I had hoped that the people would rise for something good and it has all been a great disappointment.

There are many things I no longer care about.

Still one good thing, you have reminded me of what I really do care about.

[richard51]

I think this topic has maybe run its course but out of interest the BMJ features

the destruction of Gazan hospitals: http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g4865

Idun. See your view but:

I'm older and still think its wrong and should be discussed..

Sis in laws dad, before my OH went work in refugee camp in Bethlehem, told her

that he was there too. Remembered till his death that he was given a gun,

but was told not to fire as

Palestinians were killed by Zionists in front of him.

[richard51]

Israel is, tonight, murdering children - at Eid.  Eid is the equivalent of Christmas.  Seventeen are dead - killed

while playing - in broad daylight, forty injured.

Quillan - to be frank - I'm disgusted with you with your ignorance, your complete lack of humanity and

your self righteous arrogance.  Please don't tell me to 'research' your stupid wiki links and ridiculous 'apache

video' comments.  I have done the best research - I lived and worked out there..in the Deheishe Refugee Camp.

I've watched as Israeli 'soldiers' have shot children in the back while they were running for their bus.  It was

exam day, an important day and the soldiers at the checkpoint made them strip, and then wait until they were

ready.  Precious minutes and an important exam - so he ran to catch his bus.... A single bullet in his back...

Then there was the elderly lady.  Wife of the stall holder.  Hebron is a very difficult place. 500 settlers protected

 by 4,000 soldiers - and settlers take priority.  They had already lost their home above the stall - taken by settlers

who now taunted them from above.  The settlers regularly threw a variety if detritus over them: furniture, rocks,

excrement to the extent that mesh had had to be put over the souk to protect shoppers.  On this day, we thought it

just was water, maybe urine they were throwing.  We were wrong.  It was caustic acid.  Amidst the screams we

shouted for help - an ambulance.  We were met by threats of gun fire from the IDF. Even when the emergency

vehicles arrived they were blocked by soldiers.  The woman is scared forever, physically: I am marked,

forever, mentally.

Quillan - I question not only your integrity but your humanity.

Mrs Richard 51

[mint]

Mrs R51, I hear about these things taking place but you have actually experienced them first hand.

Hell on earth, completely sickening to think that we are all supposed to be the highest order of living creatures.................ugh [:(]

[idun]

richard51, there is no where else on  the planet where so much time and money and effort has gone in to making peace over so many years and neither side will make peace.

Here are some figures, did you know that there are only 404944 adults between 29 and 60 in Gaza?

children under 14, and there are  731,617

and over half a million between 14 and 30.

Not wiki, but the Palestinian Govt figures, if they are wrong, then I could do no better than that source.

The adult palestinians want to fight, they know darned well that kids will be hit, it will be unavoidable in such a limited space, and there are few in their population who will even remember pre 1948 anyway. They are playing the international conscience card and I'm not playing. I don't get how they can afford so many kids in the first place.

The middle east is a mess and so it will remain, hopefully without dragging the rest of us into it, until they sort themselves out.

Humanity, well, where should I feel:-

Dafur?

The women of Afghanistan?

The women in Iraq under isis control, where they are threatening them with FGM now?

An endless list which I can add to and add to.

[richard51]

The Palestinians are being slowly starved courtesy of the blockade.  The water is undrinkable, desalination and water treatment plants have been bombed. The last power station has been shelled.  The only food to go in is the minimum required to sustain human life. 

Britain CREATED this situated. WE are responsible.

But never mind, Idun, you wash your hands of all the world's problems and sit back and enjoy your life.

“The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'survive.' The

honest men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their

little lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with

no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own

strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those who don’t

like to make waves—or enemies. Those for whom freedom, honour, truth,

and principles are only literature. Those who live small, mate small,

die small. It’s the reductionist approach to life: if you keep it small,

you’ll keep it under control. If you don’t make any noise, the bogeyman

won’t find you. But it’s all an illusion, because they die too, those

people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be

safe. Safe?! From what? Life is always on the edge of death; narrow

streets lead to the same place as wide avenues, and a little candle

burns itself out just like a flaming torch does. I choose my own way to

burn.”

―

Sophie Scholl

Mrs 51

[richard51]

Tonight has some of the worst bombardment that Gaza has seen.  Nevertheless, in Israel, Israelis in Tel Aviv are chanting: "There's no school tomorrow, there's no children left in Gaza! Oleh!”

http://wp.me/p1U9Fu-aq7

Mrs 51

[Russethouse]

And what are you doing now Mrs 51 ? And just what do you expect people to actually do ?

My feeling is that you are in danger of assuming something about another forum member and we all know that assumption is the mother of all mess ups.

For all you know other forum members may be passionate about other causes, just as important to them as this is to you.

I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians, but I don't have any illusion that they are completely innocent victims as a nation......Hamas should take some responsibility too.....

[richard51]

Just to clarify, under international law, Hamas are legally entitled (under the First Protocol to the 4th Geneva Convention) to resist occupation.  In contrast Israel, as military occupier, has no right of defence - regardless of what Western politicians may say.  Rather it has an obligation to safeguard the Palestinians whom it is occupying who are 'protected persons'.  Whether we are permanently resident in France or the UK, we are now witnessing war crimes that are being carried out in our name and with our financial and political support.

My concern is that we (Brits) created this situated and we have helped to maintain the ethnic cleansing and occupation for 66 years.  As a consequence, we have a moral obligation to support the Palestinians in their bid for self determination. 

I do find it difficult to understand those that put an animal ahead of a human being or who dismiss the horrors that have befallen others and which continue to befall them as a direct result of our politics.  There for the grace of God goes any one of us.

I had hoped that those on LF would still be a voice for justice.

Mrs 51

[richard51]

Two simple things you can do:

First: boycott.  This site has a list of all those companies that support the occupation: http://www.bdsmovement.net/

                         This visual shows brands that support the occupation and land theft:

                         [img]http://astiak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/t3-boycott_israel_ii.jpg[/img]

Secondly - write to your representatives in the UK or France. 

  To find your MP:  http://findyourmp.parliament.uk/

  To find you MEP: http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your_meps.html

Mrs 51

[idun]

If we, in the UK did what the population of Gaza chose to do, we would

have over 45 million children in the UK from 0to14 instead of approx 11

million. And likely many would be starving and our living conditions

would be dreadful.

Who is starving these children in Palestine?

Why are they there in the first place, reckless parenting is not my

fault and never will be. I could afford 2, just about, and no more, they

were my responsibility, not the world's, no one else's.

And

hamas are treating these children as war fodder, they don't care, but

politically they must rejoice in the way these deaths wind up those in

the west who want to play the blame/conscience game.  There is only

about  3 percent of the population of Gaza who were alive in 1948, so

few.  Post WW11, we could have made the same stupid mistakes as we did

after WW1, but instead made up with the germans and got on with things.

Like

addicts, one can only help someone who wants to help themselves and

neither side does, we cannot make them make peace when they do not want

to. Why would you say any of 'us' is to blame, it is not our fault.

The

difference between us is that you are hung up on the Israeli

Palestinian conflict and for me there is far more to be unhappy about

and do things about on this little planet, and what I list I quoted before? Did you read it?  I  care about things far more wide ranging 

than these people who will  not even try to find a

solution to a problem that could be solved. As I said, I have been

politically minded since I was young and still am, trying to make me sound shallow won't wash, I am not!

[woolybanana]

The Palestinian people and the Jewish people are both the victims of politicians who are using them as cannon fodder. The Palestinians have been brought up to hate and Jews are being brought up to hate, and in their names one side is chucking missiles and bombing innocent people going about their business and the other side is using missiles, tanks and artillery to bomb innocent people going about their business.

I can see no solution immediately until warweariness finally drags both sets of warring tribes to the negotiating table.

Unless both sides do so, there is no future for either Palestine or Israel because under present circumstances, neither side can establish stability.

[Quillan]

R51 - I was not going to post but need to try put things into context especially as you have at least twice picked on me because I disagree with some of what you have said.  You said "Israel is, tonight, murdering children - at Eid. Eid is the equivalent of Christmas. Seventeen are dead - killed while playing - in broad daylight, forty injured.". At the same time a mortar was fired from the Gaza Strip at an Israeli house killing four occupants including children. Other mortars were fired but they (fortunately) fell int fields and there were no further casualties. A tunnel exit was opened near the commune of Nahal Oz and five or more Hamas 'terrorists' left it to attack said commune and were killed before they could complete their attack.

The two 'bombs' that you talked about last night, one in the street and one in a hospital grounds were said to be Hamas rockets that misfired and the Israelis have issued a photograph of them which they claim show them being fired from within Palestine and exploding. Hamas on the other hand claim they were missiles fired from and Israeli F16 aircraft. Strangely it appears four rockets MAY have been fired at the same time and of the other two one landed at sea and the other was intercepted on its way to the city of Ashkelon.

Now on BBC1, BBC2 Newsnight, C4 News and France 2 news last night the same story ran about all this. The Newsnight reporter was actually at the hospital when the explosion went off there (he never saw what caused it as he was there for another reason but was told it was an Israeli rocket or bomb) and then jumped in his car when he heard the other explosion and rushed to the scene. His face said it all, he was clearly distraught at what he saw. He did say that he never saw any aircraft BUT that’s not to say there were none, who really knows?

Five attempts have been made so far to stop this and at each attempt Israel has claimed that Hamas have fired missiles or mortars thus breaking the truce. I have no idea how true this is but that’s what is said on Newsnight and C4 News.

Israel dropped leaflets yesterday on the areas that were to be attacked today warning civilians to move out, a bit difficult when you live in one of the most densely populated areas in the world (so I read somewhere) leaving no chance to actually run anywhere. The C4 News reporter showed the leaflets dropping and grabbed one to show to the camera. This seems a bit weird when Israel claims it wants to attack specific individuals then tells them they are coming!

The UN has given a lot of money in aid to the Palestine’s for rebuilding and Israel has been told to rebuild people’s homes there by the UN and so far there is little or no evidence that they have. Likewise nobody knows what has happened to the money the UN gave Palestine although the Israeli Ambassador who was interview on Newsnight by Jon Snow said it was used by Hamas to construct the concrete tunnels being dug into Israel and the manufacturing of rockets (they are homemade but the mortars are supplied by extremists in Iran according to UN sources) nobody seems to be able to collaborate this other than we know tunnels are being dug.

Now for the morality of it all, the killing of men, women, children and even babies. Well quite frankly both sides seem to be totally devoid of ANY form of morality. Killing is wrong, there is no possible excuse that anyone anywhere can give to justify it.

Social media and websites are plagued with propaganda on many issues (look at the Ukraine and how Russia tried to manipulate it on the web, not to mention the CIA) and everything you read needs to be picked apart and carefully digested. The issue of Palestine and Israel is no different. Likewise you have to see both sides of the story. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind (I would like to believe) that all this is wrong and needs to be addressed and quickly to stop the killing on both sides. The blame however falls on both sides and as Idun pointed out if there was a real 'want' for peace from either side a way could and should be found. There are some, perhaps Idun is one of them, I don't know, who feel that so much effort by people and countries outside of the area has been used to get lasting peace yet here we are decades after with the killing still going on and quite frankly why should they continue because in their minds it is a waste of time and energy. I do however admire those that still believe it worthwhile and will not give up and hope they can achieve this in the future.

I hope, rather than just dismiss my comments out of hand without reading them R51 that you will see that I am not 'ignorant', do not completely 'lack humanity' nor am I 'self righteous' or 'arrogant' on this issue. I refuse to blame any particular side, I am simply saying both sides are so terribly wrong and innocent people on both sides are being killed.

[Quillan]

[quote user="woolybanana"]The Palestinian people and the Jewish people are both the victims of politicians who are using them as cannon fodder. The Palestinians have been brought up to hate and Jews are being brought up to hate, and in their names one side is chucking missiles and bombing innocent people going about their business and the other side is using missiles, tanks and artillery to bomb innocent people going about their business. I can see no solution immediately until warweariness finally drags both sets of warring tribes to the negotiating table. Unless both sides do so, there is no future for either Palestine or Israel because under present circumstances, neither side can establish stability.[/quote]

Well said Wooly, so little words but spot on as always.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="richard51"]Two simple things you can do:

First: boycott.  This site has a list of all those companies that support the occupation: http://www.bdsmovement.net/

                         This visual shows brands that support the occupation and land theft:

                         [img]http://astiak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/t3-boycott_israel_ii.jpg[/img]

Secondly - write to your representatives in the UK or France. 

  To find your MP:  http://findyourmp.parliament.uk/

  To find you MEP: http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your_meps.html

Mrs 51

[/quote]

I'd be interested to know why you think Coca Cola supports the occupation ?

[NickP]

Nice to see an England cricketer sporting a "Save Gaza" wristband yesterday, but the question is; will he be wearing it today or will he be advised not to by interested parties? Total number of Arabs or Palestinians for the nit pickers of this world; killed or should we say murdered by the Israelis is now over 1100. Still; they did drop leaflets warning the inhabitants to leave their homes before they bombed them. So I suppose that makes it alright?  [Www]

[Russethouse]

Mr Russethouse and I are on different sides of the fence in this.....I'm pretty sure he would say that if you don't want your home/ hospital/ school bombed then don't let Hammas launch rockets from them.

[idun]

I think that maybe that list of companies should be taken down. The link to it, no, but what proof have any of us got that any of these companies actually support an occupation and how are they 'supporting' this so called occupation?

And re the occupation, well maybe my memory from my youth is flawed, but I seem to remember during the 6 day war, when Israel did not attack anyone, but was attacked, that they took over much land surrounding 'original' 1948 Israel. Is it occupation, when one moves onto the land of one's attackers? I have heard it called a buffer zone in some circumstances. And then there was the Yom Kippur war...... when Isreal was attacked yet again. Israel did accept that they were occupying lands and through peace treaties much was returned, IF I have remembered properly.

[NickP]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Mr Russethouse and I are on different sides of the fence in this.....I'm pretty sure he would say that if you don't want your home/ hospital/ school bombed then don't let Hammas launch rockets from them.[/quote]

 So RH,  before the good Friday agreement would he have said, that the UK should have bombed Ireland?

Interesting article in today's Telegraph that just about sums up the propaganda being produced :

Former Prime Minister Tony Blair wins million dollar Israeli leadership prize

Former prime minister

Tony Blair has won a prestigious million-dollar (£697,000) Israeli prize

for his leadership on the world stage

 

[richard51]

Re Coca Cola - They own a dairy farm in a settlement on occupied Palestinian land and a factory in the Golan. If you google "occupation coca cola" you will see this and more and also how cynical advertising really works.

Quillan. In your first paragraph you state that a mortar from the Gaza strip hit a Israeli house and killed 4 occupants, including children. I can't find any reference to this at all. I'm surprised as that would be dynamite (really sorry!) to Israeli propaganda. Where was your reference?

Back to Mr R51