Perhaps we should reflect on this

[richard51]

My understanding of the six day war was that Egypt massed forces on the border. Despite American intelligence and advise to Israel that they were not strong enough and would not attack, Israel mounted a surprise attack and knocked out the Egyptian air force before rolling out pretty much unopposed.

Perhaps, in this instance, Wiki may be a suitable background source .

[Quillan]

[quote user="richard51"]
Quillan. In your first paragraph you state that a mortar from the Gaza strip hit a Israeli house and killed 4 occupants, including children. I can't find any reference to this at all. I'm surprised as that would be dynamite (really sorry!) to Israeli propaganda. Where was your reference?

Back to Mr R51
 
[/quote]

It was on the UK TV news channels last night and France 2. It was in the Guardian first thing this morning but now gone as the article is updated but it is in the Guardian Blogg at the very bottom although now it is quoting nine people in total. As things change the origines of the start of all this, now including the alleged 'mis firings' of Hamas missiles and/or the F16 attack have all dropped of the bottom of the page. You can get to the blogg using the following link. The rest of what is happening in Gaza makes grime reading I am afraid.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/jul/29/gaza-israeli-prime-minister-vows-no-let-up-in-attacks

There is some more in the Independant.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-10-palestinians-killed-and-46-injured-in-airstrike-on-hospital-and-park-9633796.html

According to Ma'am Palistinian website the 'fighters' who used the tunnels killed five Israeli on Monday. They claim to have killed 10 Israeli soldiers as well in the same attack and removed their weapons. To quote directly "If they haven't had enough of our strikes yet, our fighters still have so much to surprise their leaders with,".

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=716795

 

 

[richard51]

In the guardian I can only see that 4 soldiers were killed by mortar fire from Gaza and not children.

[Quillan]

[quote user="richard51"]In the guardian I can only see that 4 soldiers were killed by mortar fire from Gaza and not children.
[/quote]

This is the problem with it all. If you read the other links or search yourself the number varies quite a bit as does who the people were. The Palestines say there are 14 or 15 killed as I stated and gave the link to. I do however remember quite clearly what was said on the news last night but again they may not have had all the facts at the time. It is so confusing and there is so much propaganda from both sides. That said I do not disagree that children (in Gaza) were defiantly killed as there was film of the injured and of the bodies of the dead and as grotesque as it is the film does not lie.

[Russethouse]

Look up National beverage Company...started by Palestinians and employing Palestinians......in partnership with CocaCola. Things are rarely clear cut......or totally one sided.

http://english.pnn.ps/index.php/national/2985-the-national-beverage-company-coca--colacappy-palestine

If Palestinians can accept that Coca cola is an international company and are happy to work them even so, why should I boycott them?

Frankly I doubt very much if boycotting any of the listed companies or writing to my MP would do any good...

Of course, it's Obama's last term, he has little to lose...he could be firmer with Israel, the Jewish American vote won't be of concern to him...and in any case many of them are not supportive of the current action.

[richard51]

Russethouse: "Arbeit Macht Frei" - if you don't recognise it already Google it.

[Russethouse]

That's ridiculous - the article states quite clearly the company was started by a Palestinian......

Frankly I am not particularly interested in the rights and wrongs of either side, what I detest is the killing of children who have no choice .

[richard51]

The Palestinian economy is crippled by the occupation (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/08/palestinian-territories-israel-control-hurting-economy).  The unemployment rates are very high with no welfare.  Palestinians working in Israeli factories in the West Bank have NO health and safety protection and NO minimum wage.  They work there because the occupation means their is little other choice. EDIT: I would also add that these are reasons why there is an incentive for Israeli businesses to move to illegal settlements in the West Bank - that and financial grants from the Israel government and tax free status for the first few years of operation.

Coca Cola has factories built on stolen land in illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank.  Further it has compounded its position by acquiring controlling interests in other business also built on stolen land in illegal settlements.  Coca Cola have been an active supporter of Israel and the occupation since 1967 when it began. Coca Cola also financially supports a number of organisations that promote Israel's occupation to overseas government - including 'Friend of Israel' who have provided all expenses propaganda trips to UK politicians from all three major UK political parties - and by doing so have bought the silence from HMG over the current massacre in Gaza.

As an aside, Palestine had its own soft drinks factory that was in direct competition with Israeli soft drinks being sold in the West Bank.  Israel's answer?  It bombed it. 'For security reasons' of course - like olive groves are cut to the ground - 'for security reasons'.  I visited the remains of the soft drinks factory last time I was in the West Bank.

Mrs 51

[richard51]

The killing of Gazan children can not be looked at in isolation - it is part of 66 years ethnic cleansing.  It should also be looked at in the context of Israeli domestic politics which are extremely right wing and racist.  An excellent book is Max Blumenthal's "Goliath: Life and loathing in Greater Israel" Max is a highly respected Jewish American journalist.  His book is based on two years research in Israel.

Rachel Shabi's book - "Not the enemy - Israel's Jews from Arab lands" is also worth reading.  Rachel is an Iraqi Jew.

Mrs 51

[PaulT]

Interesting reading about which I will not comment apart from to say perhaps unless you are an expert on middle east affairs then there will always be media reports that will not necessarily be unbiased.

It is good that this is a forum and not a debating society otherwise there could be a recreation of what is going on although to a lesser extent.

[NickP]

[quote user="PaulT"]           

It is good that this is a forum and not a debating society otherwise there could be a recreation of what is going on although to a lesser extent.[/quote]

That is just the problem Paul, lots of people just want to sit on the fence because they don't want to upset the Zionists. Long may this and other forums allow people to voice their opinions, if not we might as well pack it in and say nothing, which is exactly what they want us to do.

[PaulT]

But Nick opinions are totally worthless if based on media information that might be skewed because of the proprietors wishes and propaganda from each side.

[NickP]

[quote user="PaulT"]But Nick opinions are totally worthless if based on media information that might be skewed because of the proprietors wishes and propaganda from each side.[/quote]

Exactly; and any one with half a brain reads and researches as much as possible, then reads between the lines and extracts what they believe or perceive  to be correct.

"The proprietors wishes"        That is exactly what I was alluding to in my last post, I don't think many Palestinians, Arabs for the nit pickers, control many media sites in the UK. I must admit I watch Al-Jazeera, and I think they are pretty good but I don't set 100% by them, but better that than the propaganda put out by the Zionist's mates.

So Paul tell me if we don't access the media how do we learn anything at all? If you do know; please send me the answer, as I would love to know the secret?

[Quillan]

On my coffee break I had a quick look at the Guardian today and of course like most newspapers the appauling situation in Gaza is top of the list.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-another-un-school-hit-in-further-night-of-fierce-bombardment

Here is an interesting snipped from about halfway down the page concerning UN schools and building where some 200,000 Palistinians have gone for protection.

"The UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, said on Tuesday it had found a cache of rockets at one of its schools in Gaza and deplored those who had put them there for placing civilians in harm’s way.

“This is yet another flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises. We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of UN property,” Gunness said. Two similar discoveries were made last week."

There must be something the UN can do about this to help make these places safe for those genuine refugees seeking shelter there. This is also why I say both sides are equally as guilty and there seems to be a reluctance on both sides for peace. I always thought elected governments were supposed to have their electorates best interests at heart, clearly this is not correct on both sides.

[Clark Kent II]

I find myself thinking that neither side in this affair can claim any credit. However, it is not the only dispute in the Middle East, nor is it the bloodiest. But is it just because Israel is involved that it hogs our attention?

Does it need to be placed into a wider context?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

[NickP]

Snippet from a report from The Independent reporter Patrick Cockburn

Israeli spokesmen have their work cut out

explaining how they have killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza,

most of them civilians, compared with just three civilians killed in

Israel by Hamas rocket and mortar fire.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Clark Kent II"]

I find myself thinking that neither side in this affair can claim any credit. However, it is not the only dispute in the Middle East, nor is it the bloodiest. But is it just because Israel is involved that it hogs our attention?

Does it need to be placed into a wider context?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

[/quote]

Thanks for that, I have read it all and to me puts a lot of it into context especially with my belief that both sides are equally to blame. I think I am with Hummus when it comes to picking sides. [;-)] My family cannot understand why I cannot support Israel (government) like it is automatic just because you’re Jewish and it always ends in a lot of shouting. They automatically assume I must therefore support Hamas which I don't. I cannot condone the actions of either side as both are wrong and innocent people (men, women and children) on both sides are getting killed even though some would imply it is only happening on one side and not the other.

I would also like to add my own view that there is a distinct difference between normal Palestine’s and Hamas. One group are just ordinary people trying to survive (the ones I fell sorry for) whilst the other has a particular agenda (to kill all Jews and destroy Israel). Likewise with Israel, there is a group who would like to see Palestine wiped off the face of the earth and see ordinary Palestinians as all being Hamas. Personally I would like to give all the Hamas and Zionists a sword each then lock them in a stadium and let them fight it out leaving the rest of the Jews and Palestinians out of it. To simplistic and of course would never happen.

On the London News (BBC1) on Monday there was a bit about the London Rabbi who visited one of the London Universities that was holding a feast to mark the end of Eid. It was nice to see him there and how much the Muslim people appreciated his effort to attend. It just shows that there can be peace and understanding amongst religions although I always like to say that I don't have a problem with God (I speak to him often) but I do have a problem with religion.

[idun]

[quote user="Clark Kent II"]

I find myself thinking that neither side in this affair can claim any credit. However, it is not the only dispute in the Middle East, nor is it the bloodiest. But is it just because Israel is involved that it hogs our attention?

Does it need to be placed into a wider context?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

[/quote]

Thankyou for the link CK.

[NickP]

As you like links, have a look at this one,

 www.peterloud.co.uk/palestine/ and while you're looking click on the link within it

Conservative friends of Israel

 Labour Friends of Israel    

[richard51]

CKs link is really trying to compare the Israel/Palestinian situation with that of the creation of Pakistan in 1947.

Whereas that particular conflict was definitely religion-based the creation of Israel was indeed not. The extremely religious Jews were and still are against the creation of Israel. Bibi is, I understand, atheist as is the Pakistani/Canadian author of the link.

There was no occupation or creation and progressive stealing of land etc. Pakistan's military have no defenceless, poorly equipped, people to bully.

Here are some more myths:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html

[Quillan]

This can go round and round in circles until the cows come home. Whatever link anyone produces somebody else can produce a counter link. Attrocities, for that is what they are, have been commited by both sides over the years and the most important and most urgent thing is to get BOTH parties to sit round a table and stop the fighting. Neither side will ever accept the other so the most logical thing is a buffer zone (which did exist once) to be created and this time UN troops put there to keep the two apart.

By the way it is not the first time I have heard that money given to the Palistinians for rebuilding has 'disappeared', I have read that somewhere else a while back and it was mentioned on Newsnight on Monday. Likewise the author failed to mention that the UN told Israel to rebuild some of the homes and they have not done that either and I am supprised the UN have not been more demanding on that issue alone. I also remember years ago when the Israelis blew up a school becuase it contained Hamas weapons that even the Arab League at the time (in that particular instance) found Israel innocent of any war crime. Still as I said we can go round and round and nothing will change unless you can get them round a table.

[richard51]

Just evening things up - Mehdi Hasan, the author, though British, is Indian ethnicity.

[richard51]

There have been numerous attempts to get them around the table but when one party (Israel) doesn't want peace then it becomes a pointless exercise as Kerry found out.  Netanyahu has stated that 'he will do everything within his power to ensure there is never a Palestinian state': http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/netanyahu-palestinian-state.html  As the 'Palestinian Papers' (released as part of the 'wikileaks') clearly demonstrated, Palestine were making all the concessions and Israel none - http://www.theguardian.com/world/palestine-papers-documents/browse. Which was the same scenario in the latest round of talks causing Kerry to place most of the blame for the failed talks on Israel. Of course Kerry was accused of being 'anti-Semitic' which has become the standard response to anyone who criticizes Israel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0kWAqZxJVE).

No peace gives Netanyahu: no agreed borders and so continued settlement expansion, military law, $3bn aid per annum from the US and the ability to milk world sympathy as the supposed 'victim' in all of this. Why would he want to give that up?

Mrs 51

[nomoss]

How can anyone hope to end a war between a group led by a bunch

of fanatics who believe their ancestors were given a territory by a

supernatural being a few thousand years ago, and a group with the same ethnic

origin, led by another bunch of fanatics, who believe in a different supernatural

being, claim they have sole rights to the territory, and want to annihilate the

first group?

It is never a good idea to get involved in family disputes.

[richard51]

Trouble is Britain and America did and made one family all-powerful.