Land of milk and honey

[Quillan]

[quote user="Théière"][quote user="Rabbie"]Glad to see the spirit of Christian Charity is alive and well and being displayed in this thread[6][/quote]

Do you mean Samaritan charity as that was the person who helped, no one else.

If there are refugees from Lybia and Syria then there are countries much closer where they could seek asylam as has been said many times before.  There are even more long before you reach the Channel, so is it the alledged benifits system and NHS they really want?
This is a world wide problem and needs a world wide solution. Personally I find Britain very crowded whereas other countries seem to have more space so should be able accododate more and could work for accomdodation and food but never be granted citizenship status.
[/quote]

Did you see the C4 News bit about the ones that turn up in Germany and they way they are treated? Used as cheap illegal workers and all that, the speal was not that much different to what you hear in the UK. The othe, equally disturbing side s about those Germans who are cllecting these people from other countries and taking them to Germany and selling them on for 200 Euros a time to farmers. One 'enterprising' German was collecting 12 at a time in a mini bas and said what with the cost a fuel and his sandwiches he was making over 2k per run. Germany take just less than the UK apparently.

[Théière]

I just don't reckon you can have the answer as you all love France but obviously the migrants don't they prefer where you left so maybe you should all be spokespersons telling them the UK isn't a nice as France even with £30 something pounds in your pocket.

I see plenty of them 5+ at a time waiting by the sides of the roads or in Wickes etc car parks waiting to be picked up for cheap labour.  Of course if there were some civil servants around they could tail the perpertrators and nick them, at £10,000 a time the UK economy could use that mind you the French and German's would probably want their cut

[mint]

PM alert for you, Q; I will write it très bientot! (excuse me, haven't yet worked out how to put the "chapeau" over the "o")

[Quillan]

Tell you what Théière we get people from all over the EU stay here, indeed the world even and this thread could be translated into any EU language and people would be saying the same things about their own country. Just had two Belgian couples leave, to hear them talk you would think every immigrant heads for Belgium. I was looking at a Polish forum the other day, the Brits were saying how the Poles are blaming them for forcing the property prices up by so much young Poles can't afford to buy a place of their own and the things they moan about concerning Poland and living there well lets just say I have heard it all before but not about Poland.

[lindal1000]

I agree Richard that one way to help is to work to improve things in the countries from where most migrants originate. If things were better there then there would be no need or desire for people to pack up and leave, and even if they wanted there would most likely be a legitimate route.

It still doesn't solve the problem of what to do in the meantime, although as I say, once a few nice middle class hard working people have had to pick up the bodies of drowned migrants from their holiday resort I have no doubt that the 'let them drown' group will be silenced.

From what I understand about the UK, if you are caught and are found to be staying illegally you are deported.. the same as for many other countries. Of course no one really knows how many people live in any country 'illegally' under the radar. There was talk at some point that if you were living in France and 'inactif' without proper medical insurance you were 'illegal', but I can think of many people who do that and no one has arrested them or deported them yet! The whole time you are living under the radar though..in any country, you get nothing..no benefits, no health cover, no support, unless there are a few charities that will help. Once you start to have to interact with the system to get anything your legal right to reside is called into question. By it's very definition and illegal immigrant cannot claim state assistance unless their status is changed.

[Quillan]

I forgot to say to those that think it is OK for these immigrants en-route to drown because thy know the risks I take it the same logic is applied to their families and friends.

Mother - "Johnny don't put your head in the oven and turn the gas tap on you will die".

Two days later.

Jane - "Mummy, Johnny has just put his head in the oven and turned the gas tap on".

Mother - "Well Jane I told him if he did he would die so leave him".

Now you may argue that this is different to immigrants but to me the same logic applies if I was in your shoes. They have been told so therefore if they do it and die then then your world thats tough luck, you were told. Logic then dictates that it is the same with anyone who is told. I mean like a baby or child who goes on these boats with the parents and has no choice in the matter. The parents were after all told it could happen.

[idun]

ID cards?............... yet more 'jobs' for the traffickers where they can make lots more money selling them too. I'd love to believe it was otherwise, but I doubt that it would be.

The analogy with the boy's head in the oven, well, we should all have a duty of care to look after 'our' children. We the parents and the society in which 'we' live. We cannot look after every one else's children, every where.  I'm pleased that so many posters on here believe that they pay sufficient in taxes to pay for everyone else's children (and their parents). Because we don't and taxes will go up ..... and we will empoverish every one of us, if we try and 'keep' the world completely.  I wonder just how much  our tax bills will go up, if we do take responsibility ? We do not have the money or the resources.

And mince, I still cannot get over the FACT that since I was a child that billions and billions has been put into third world countries, for education and health and we are at this impasse now. I don't care where that money went, it was given by our governments, and also by charities, my donations only to 'reputable' ones. And 'we' gave generously to these respectable charities and so their respectability is now lost on me. I have simply had enough of being conned and all of it. I shall, as I have said before, only give to animal charities. (I used to look at BB many years ago and think she was off her rocker, and with age and disillusion I understand her completely now, and it is a strange feeling). Well that is not quite true, I do give to local shelter for the homeless and always buy something for one poor young fella I see on the streets and the RNLI, shall I say I also give to 'local charites for local people', and why not.

And most of all I am disillusioned with my own sense of good things to come. The great feeling of hope I had for the arab spring. The joy at Saddam being removed..... For some odd reason I thought that the people of these countries would take the opportunity and take on the challenge and make decent lives without fear. But they have not, power struggles and factions of emerged which  are worse than the dictators themselves. And maybe one day, if the people of these countries can be 'rsed, and just not flee,  maybe they will have good and decent lives in their own countries.

[Quillan]

Actually Idun non EU immigrants are now required by UK law to have (and to carry at all times) a BRP (Biometric Residence Permit). It is about the size of a credit card. It is a slight variation of the same card they were going to introduce as a UK ID card. Mrs Q informs me that if the police believe you to be an immigrant and you are unable to produce one you will be arrested immediately. To employ somebody who does not have (but should) a BRP is a criminal offence and you can be fined up to £20,000 per immigrant. The BRP came into effect from 2008 and is a EU system which replaced the old UK residency permits. However it is a very (and over) complicated system for employers to check on as can be seen in the guidelines as issued below.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/313849/employers_guide_to_acceptable_right_to_work_documents.pdf

For the penalties see the following link.

https://www.gov.uk/penalties-for-employing-illegal-workers

Problem is that since the UK Border Agency was disbanded and the 'paper work' side was taken over by UK Visa and Immigration Office there has been a massive jump in illegal immigrants entering and living in the UK.

 

[Rabbie]

[quote user="PaulT"]Rabbie, I am not a Christian[/quote]Neither am I. But I happen to think that it is the mark of a civilised country that we do not ignore people who are in difficulties and at risk of losing their life. I think that as a human being I should offer assistance to another human being in that situation even if it is self inflicted. For me it is a simple matter of "Do as you would be done by".

I just hope if I am in difficulties you  are not the first person to come by as it seems you would be unwilling to help.

[Théière]

[quote user="Quillan"]Tell you what Théière we get people from all over the EU stay here, indeed the world even and this thread could be translated into any EU language and people would be saying the same things about their own country. Just had two Belgian couples leave, to hear them talk you would think every immigrant heads for Belgium. I was looking at a Polish forum the other day, the Brits were saying how the Poles are blaming them for forcing the property prices up by so much young Poles can't afford to buy a place of their own and the things they moan about concerning Poland and living there well lets just say I have heard it all before but not about Poland.[/quote]

I know we are all manipulated by our press and media.  It's now on to the 11th page and despite the finest minds of the forum we haven't come up with a solution. Have any of your guests suggested anything?

I like the Polish bit, they come to the UK to work, some Brits buy their house and they can't afford to go back to it. Oh the irony [:D]  Now if we can get enough to move into one area and then democratically vote in one of the expats into local government we can begin change the way they run things and extend the the UK, parts of Poland are beautiful as we have seen by our neighbours photos.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

[quote user="PaulT"]Rabbie, I am not a Christian[/quote]Neither am I. But I happen to think that it is the mark of a civilised country that we do not ignore people who are in difficulties and at risk of losing their life. I think that as a human being I should offer assistance to another human being in that situation even if it is self inflicted. For me it is a simple matter of "Do as you would be done by".

[/quote]

I am thinking that I might understand why the FN did so well down south in the local elections, many of the Expats must of voted for them. [;-)]

Don't worry Rabbie at least if I see you drowning in a lake down here I will pull you out. [:D]

[mint]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

[quote user="PaulT"]Rabbie, I am not a Christian[/quote]Neither am I. But I happen to think that it is the mark of a civilised country that we do not ignore people who are in difficulties and at risk of losing their life. I think that as a human being I should offer assistance to another human being in that situation even if it is self inflicted. For me it is a simple matter of "Do as you would be done by".

I just hope if I am in difficulties you  are not the first person to come by as it seems you would be unwilling to help.

[/quote]

Rabbie, don't give up on the human race just yet.  Look at this story and you will see that we are not all potential mass murderers:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2814565/Nobel-winning-schoolgirl-Malala-donates-latest-50-000-prize-help-rebuild-schools-Gaza-damaged-fighting-Israel-Palestine.html

[richard51]

Your post Mint, leads me to think of Quillans's Jonny and Jane scenario with regards to the most recent attack on Gaza. 

Look (echos of Mr B_lair funding), we, the IDF, told you a few minutes before, that we were going to blow your house to smithereens.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="mint"][quote user="Rabbie"]

[quote user="PaulT"]Rabbie, I am not a Christian[/quote]Neither am I. But I happen to think that it is the mark of a civilised country that we do not ignore people who are in difficulties and at risk of losing their life. I think that as a human being I should offer assistance to another human being in that situation even if it is self inflicted. For me it is a simple matter of "Do as you would be done by".

I just hope if I am in difficulties you  are not the first person to come by as it seems you would be unwilling to help.

[/quote]

Rabbie, don't give up on the human race just yet.  Look at this story and you will see that we are not all potential mass murderers:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2814565/Nobel-winning-schoolgirl-Malala-donates-latest-50-000-prize-help-rebuild-schools-Gaza-damaged-fighting-Israel-Palestine.html
[/quote]No intention of giving up on the human race. I know there a lot of good decent people out there. Just a bit puzzled by those people that think it is OK to knowingly allow people to drown. I find such an attitude incomprehensible

[mint]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

No intention of giving up on the human race. I know there a lot of good decent people out there. Just a bit puzzled by those people that think it is OK to knowingly allow people to drown. I find such an attitude incomprehensible[/quote]

Rabbie, as they say, there's nowt so queer as folk.

I find it incomprensible as well.

As far as I am concerned, it's like a Monty Python joke.  Just listen to John Cleese's voice in the Ministry of Whatever:  Why don't we just let them drown, what?

So, there you have it!

[Théière]

But they are safe on dry land before deciding whether to set sail for the promised land. And that is the point of assylum.  It is not to seek out the Dorchester.

I don't like seeing people smoking or drinking heaviy as they are knowingly hurting themselves what should I do crush their cigarette packet?

[idun]

Let them die?

IF the death of anyone else in this world is truly 'our' problem, then 'we' are responsible for everything eternally.

This now feels like it is a pick and mix and I don't know why. There are children/babies dying of malnutrition and sickness in camps in Africa, their families living in terror from the various evil groups that attack these camps so that it becomes very dangerous to get aid to them.

There is dire poverty that takes life all over the world. And there are the wars, and civilians get killed and hurt, and this includes women and children.

I remember a post not so long ago on here about Gaza and that was supposed to be some sort of 'cause celebre', but on this planet, there was really nothing special it, it was the same m 'erde that exists elsewhere, but maybe a little closer to home.

These are human catastrophes, I won't say that one is more deserving than another, they are all terrible. My thought is that most, maybe none of them, should have happened.

The big countries are told not to interfere in the affairs of smaller countries, keep out, we don't want your armies, but really would anyone send other than the military into these hot zones to sort stuff out. None of us can win.

Maybe individuals can do their bit,, would you?  ie go to Lampedusa and go out with the fishermen and fish for humans, but then what, keep these people for the rest of their lives........ and they chose to be there. Are they really more deserving than people in camps, that are not on tv news all the time, where death is a constant companion.

And a comedy sketch was mentioned by mint...... anyone remember the Darwin Awards. No one has sent me that list for a while now, but when they did, I, I suppose, like many others was amused and shook my head at foolish people who risked their lives and through their own stupidity, paid the price. Darwin Awards = natural selection.

I know that we cannot save everyone.

[PaulT]

Rabbie, I hope that you are donating to the appeals to help with the ebola crisis.

Latest edition of Private Eye

NUMBER CRUNCHING

4,912 Deaths recorded so far this year in Sierra Leone, Liberia and Guinea from ebola, which is currently incurable

7,000 Deaths recorded in Sierra Leone, Liberia and Guinea from malaria, which is curable

So why all the appeals for ebola and ignore malaria?

Plus, do not portray me as someone who does not help others. However, I cannot help globally and some people have to take the outcomes of some of the risks that they could take.

Increasing patrols in the med to pick up those on unsafe boats, I can imagine the conversations:

'But Abdul (or any other name you wish to insert here), this boat you are telling me to get on looks very unsafe and unable to get across the med'

'Do not worry, one of the nice EU navies vessels will pick you up a little way across and you will then have a nice safe and comfortable journey in to Europe'

Thinks - can make a load more money because I can buy even boats that are even more ropey so they will be cheaper.

Yes, there may be families coming over but from what I have seen in the media the large majority are young males

Perhaps the UK does bear some responsibility. The assistance in overthrowing a brutal and oppressive regime in both Iraq and Libya seems to have resulted in a large number of groups fighting one anther and any one in their way because they wish to form the next brutal and oppressive regime.

Aid to the African continent seems to have had benefits - for some due to large scale corruption.

And what about people dying in the UK that do not need to. The UK does not have the sufficient dialysis capacity. In conversation with a senior member of staff in the renal unit at the NHS trust that I worked at she stated that not all people who need dialysis will get it and therefore they will die. I was involved in securing premises to enable the service to be increased but even so it still did not provide the capacity needed. Should the UK fund more ships in the med to pick up immigrants who have chosen to try to get to europe no matter how hazardous - and they must be aware of that - or put the money in to dialysis facilities to save UK residents.

[cardi]

In my many years in France I have seen that the proportion of UKIP types in the expat population in France is much higher than in the UK itself.

Some years ago it was a generous French system which allowed benefits to all.

When money started to become tighter some fonc noticed that many non French were claiming RMI (Income Support) despite driving new cars and living in large houses.

The largest nationality doing this were ......

How they moaned.

[EuroTrash]

"the proportion of UKIP types in the expat population in France is much higher than in the UK itself."

I hope you're including the citizens of Sangatte when you talk about 'the expat population in France', just to keep the balance, because there'll be a fair few ex-Sangattians skewing the stats on the other side.

[idun]

[quote user="cardi"]In my many years in France I have seen that the proportion of UKIP types in the expat population in France is much higher than in the UK itself.

Some years ago it was a generous French system which allowed benefits to all.

When money started to become tighter some fonc noticed that many non French were claiming RMI (Income Support) despite driving new cars and living in large houses.

The largest nationality doing this were ......

How they moaned.[/quote]

What?

The only british people I knew in France had moved to work in France and that was all. No retirees, and their view of the UK, well it really did depend on how much notice they chose to take, even could take. As for a lot of our early years with no SKY tv etc, and us all only having french tv, all we got were bits from newspapers and family telling us and the odd visit, c'est tout.

How coloured are the views those that chose to move to cheap France , I don't know, but part of your argument is certainly skewed!

And benefits, 'to all', when it came in it was very welcome as far as I was concerned. There was not always a safety net in France. And only the a l'aise can afford new cars and big houses, and if they are claiming RMI, then they are cheating the system and that happens in all countries.

[idun]

Quote from John LeCarre's, The Secret Pilgrim.

I told them that the only pauses in the history of human conflict had been pauses not for moderation but excess, pauses for the world to redivide itself, for the thugs and the victims to find each other, for greed and deprival to regroup.

I would only question one thing and that is, 'when' has there never been human conflict? I cannot remember when there has not been a conflict somewhere on this planet.

[cardi]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]"the proportion of UKIP types in the expat population in France is much higher than in the UK itself."

I hope you're including the citizens of Sangatte when you talk about 'the expat population in France', just to keep the balance, because there'll be a fair few ex-Sangattians skewing the stats on the other side.[/quote]

Brits who go to foreign countries of their choosing to live are expats. This is a positive concept.

Foreigners who move to other countries are immigrants.

Get with the programme.

Hey,

What do you call a Kenyan who has a Phd in astrophysics, speaks 6 languages and writes poetry.

Answer: A bloody immigrant.

[woolybanana]

Answer: an asset.

[Quillan]

It is true to say that Brits who live in France find it difficult to think of themselves as a immigrant which is what they are. Bit like Brits who move to the US or Australia etc, now that really is an oxymoron.

I think it is hilarious that there are Ukip supporters living in France, it really is like turkeys voting from Christmas.