EU Move to force a change away from halogen lights

[Gluestick]

Interestingly, T, I have just this morning checked the full tech spec of the 3 W Star LEDs I referenced, yesterday.

In application, they demand a heat sink!

Lumens: another dangerous coefficient: rather as with Decibels. Lumens are specified as x @ y metres. Most it seems are measured and thus specified at One Metre.

And BTW, Q; it seems the rated heat hoods for sunk lighting are moulded from Intumescent Plastic.

[Théière]

[quote user="Gluestick"]Interestingly, T, I have just this morning checked the full tech spec of the 3 W Star LEDs I referenced, yesterday.

In application, they demand a heat sink!  Yes indeed, but at 3w it's only small by way of a thin aly plates, similar to that used by computer chips with some thermal compound to improve things. I made a special for a customer to convert the krypton lamps to LED and pop riveted several aly shims together, thank heavens for thermal cameras so you can see and measure the heat spots

Lumens: another dangerous coefficient: rather as with Decibels. Lumens are specified as x @ y metres. Most it seems are measured and thus specified at One Metre.  Yes my Brother bought halogens, GU10's from Tesco (50w)  200 lumens at 1 meter!  4 watt LED 260 lumens at 1meter. That's what I said to Frederick early on the crappy GU10's are the ones that will be phased out initially.

And BTW, Q; it seems the rated heat hoods for sunk lighting are moulded from Intumescent Plastic. Are they? the ones I have are a sort of Nomex fabric.

[/quote]

Lazy lighting companies produce awful fittings, on the commercial side we get roughly 1200 lumens from a 2D type lamp but through the poor opal diffuser this gave a very low figure of 400-500 (rusty memory) at 1 meter. LED were about 800 lumens and similar output as they faced forward only unlike the 360 deg of the 2D, thinner translucent diffusers gave more light and shows that although powerful wasteful lamps were used the light was trapped inside the fitting in a lot of cases

EDIT, off to watch bargain hunt, rumour is there are some incandescent lamps from last century on the program [:D]

[Chancer]

[quote user="Théière"]Yes Chancer you can get a panel one to replace one or more of the tiles 600mm x 600mm 40w LED or thereabouts for £60

or the fittings that are thin you could fit into your panel 18w around 225mm dia or square, just testing the 12w versions that arrived the other day.  If you are not so worried about fashion the "Luna" bulkheads 16-18w work well to and no ceiling penetration.

[/quote]

Dont have the depth for the recessed panel ones, thats why they now light my workshop and chantier in France!

Do you have a link to the 225mm round ones or tell me what search terms to use to find them please?

I took apart one of the 7 watt downlighters, really well made but not a lot too them, the machined aluminium alone is Worth 5 times the price were it any other product, the circuit board, a tiny transformer, 5 capacitors, a resistor and 5 surface mount integrated circuits, a bit more than what Gluestick quoted so I hope there is some additional protection designed in.

The heatsink is liberally dosed with heat sink compound and doesnt even get warm to the touch, I am experimenting with one buried in insulation as if things work out I will be removing half the depth of the heat sink to use them in my suspended ceiling in the UK.

[Théière]

Depending on the particular panel the 600 x 600 are about 15mm recess so you probably do have room.

Ebay for the others, The 12w one I have here and I will check on the lumen output to see how it stacks up against their claimed output.

[Daft Doctor]

All I can say on the subject of LEDs is that when our new house was finished last year I bought LED bulbs for every single light fitting, internal and exterior, amounting to over 80 separate bulbs. They included GU10, E27, E14, and G9s. If I were to go now and switch all of them on simultaneously, the total load would be less than 300W, and the quality of light is fantastic without exception. For instance, we light our 40sqm terrace and balcony with 6x 4W LED GU10 replacement bulbs, cool white, and it is just amazing. Yes, I paid out £400 to LEDHut.co.uk (delivery to France was only £3), but I will easily recoup that within a year in electricity savings, and so far there have been no failures. As for health effects, it's all b*ll*cks, no evidence whatsoever. I know that earlier LEDs for some people didn't always produce adequate light compared with the traditional bulbs being replaced, but that certainly is not the case now. Initial buying costs may be an issue for some, but why anyone wouldn't have LED bulbs on principle is beyond me.

[Benjamin]

Teapot

Thanks for your helpful post on 04/03 16:38. I do not need any at the moment but I will source from a company that gives a five year guarantee/warranty and a 30 day money back/no hassle returns policy.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Théière"]Depending on the particular panel the 600 x 600 are about 15mm recess so you probably do have room.

Ebay for the others, The 12w one I have here and I will check on the lumen output to see how it stacks up against their claimed output.
[/quote]

Thanks for that, I dont want to replace the whole tile, it would be too imposant, I want a round one in the centre and what you linked to or the surface mount ones will be fine, I might even put the innards in my fitting, and around the edges a few spots with reduced depth and again what you linked to is perfect.

The problem I have on the net is knowing what to search/ask for, that and losing my English.

Most appreciated.

Re a 5 year warranty, well if it gives you percieved piece of mind and you dont pay any more for it then by all means, I would not expect many of the  internet sellers to be around in 5 months let alone 5 years using the same trading name/identity.

And as for sending stuff back, well I suggest you ask at La Poste how much it costs to send back that free delivery parcel to Shenzeng Province, my experience of large volume e-bay sellers is that all their resource goes into selling and little or none in handling returns, you have to really push them for them to acknowledge reciept (they probably just put all the returned parcels into landfill) and refund, the ones that ask you to return the goods are the ones most likely not to refund you, the better ones just say "will you accept X refund to keep the goods".

We are a decade into the 22nd century now, our mindsets must change, if only a little, technology and the world is changing much more rapidly than many of us are able or willing to.

[Théière]

Yes, whilst it may seem I am always having a pop at Philips, their CFL lamps came with a 10y guarantee. 42 were fitted in 3 blocks of flats, 37 failed within 1 month. The retailer didn't want them back surprise surprise, so gave me £3.70 out of the till and said go to Sainbury's homebase they are selling them for 10p, cos they are crap.

It's a nice idea 5y and all that but if the cost is 3 x higher your buying your replacement lamps upfront and just going to collect them later, that's ok but any new lamp out there that you could have taken advantage of would put in the slightly agrieved position of getting back old stock. COB Led's are an example of the move forwards.  The first ones of those in GU10's have a colimating lense on the front, nice idea but it put a yellow corona around the beam and wasn't nice, now they use a better reflector to spread the beam.

[Quillan]

I can't remember anyone giving 5 year warranty on any filament lamps. To be honest the price you can buy these LED bulbs for these days even if they last a year (and believe me the dirt cheap ones last at least two, I know coz thats what I bought) it still works out cheaper than filament type bulbs. Anyway ladies no more 'dribbles' on the toilet floor with LED's as they come on straight away unlike (as most chaps will confirm) the fluorescent types which only get to full brightness long after you have a had a wee and felt it run down the side of your leg at 2 O'clock in the morning. [;-)]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"] If I were to go now and switch all of them on simultaneously, the total load would be less than 300W, [/quote]

Don't forget that whilst Switch Mode Power Supplies - SMPs - (which is precisely what LED Drivers are), whilst being 60-70% efficient (Whereas Liner Power Supplies, are only 30-40% efficient since transformers develop waste heat and there are other induced losses in the soft iron laminates), you would still be carrying this loss budget.

Ergo, 300 Watts terminal appliance load @ say 65% electrical efficiency means an actual power consumption budget of circa 461 Watts.

Additionally, do consider RFI (Radio Frequency Interference): SMPSs generate significant RFI as they are effectively, multi-vibrator circuits.

Could play havoc with WiFi!

This is why if you open a PC case, then you will see the PSU module, is carefully encased in metal shielding.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]I can't remember anyone giving 5 year warranty on any filament lamps. [/quote]

HO YES!

Was a wondrous Ponzi scheme!

Charged five times the average cost then; sourced from Poland, unknown brand name. The deal was the mug paid up front and received a bulb and a "Warranty" and if it blew (which it would, really!), the mug had to send it back (and pay postage) and they received, well, in theory at least [:D] a replacement by post.

In point of fact I was very tempted at the time and conjoin in some mug plucking!

My integrity and conscience (plus the old school tie!) prevented me.

I was also tempted, a few years back, to become M. Ampoule, doing Brocantes and Markets: Then I would buy "Energy Efficient" ampoules from one of my wholesalers in the UK for a fraction of the then French prices.....................couldn't find a beret which fitted and hated Gaulloise though, so it was a non-starter. Got the Gallic Shrug off to perfection, however.

[Théière]

Hi Gluey, I have been having computer problems over the last week or so and the internal battery error came up everyday so I had a look inside this morning and 4 electrolytic capacitors have blown the ends out so transferring to a newish PC at the moment before catastrophe hits.  Plenty of nasty dirty mains these days so a bit more from SMP can't make much difference, now we buy power cleaners to put in before or hifi's and televisions.  [Www]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Théière"]Hi Gluey, I have been having computer problems over the last week or so and the internal battery error came up everyday so I had a look inside this morning and 4 electrolytic capacitors have blown the ends out so transferring to a newish PC at the moment before catastrophe hits.  Plenty of nasty dirty mains these days so a bit more from SMP can't make much difference, now we buy power cleaners to put in before or hifi's and televisions.  [Www]

[/quote]

Mains interference is a rather different to pure RFI: mains cleaning "blocks" will filter a modicum of RFI, as well as ripple, inductive problems etc: however, by its name, RFI means free radiating interference and since it is not "tuned", it is across the RF spectrum. If installing multiple LED drivers, then I would, for the sake of a few quid, encase 'em in ally boxes. Also has the benefit of acting as a heat sink. Reminds of upper school Physics. We were banned from using the old spark gap transmitter 'cos it blanked the nearby airport comms! [:'(]

Made some luvverly sparks, though! [:D]

PCs; dontcha love 'em!

Mrs Gluey has a new toy this week: I had an offer from one of my trade suppliers for an excellent deal and grabbed one, the latest Dell tablet. Keeps her occupied for hours........learning MS 8.1 as we speak!

I know how to treat a lady!

[8-|]

[Chancer]

One advantage or disadvantage of now living in permanent Sahara like daylight is not wanting to sleep, 2.30 am and I am still wide awake and working on the lighting layouts of the flats.

Its very difficult because I want to retain a reasonable pitch, say 1.2m, leaving around half of that around the edges, I have to miss the ceiling montants whose pitch is 50cm so will clash unless I reduce the lighting pitch, L shaped rooms where 2 rows space nicely at one end but 3 doesnt work out the other, 3 plus 4 rows gives too many spots, etc etc etc.

Teapot, with the current leds how many watts per m2 are you allowing? These are salons that I am talking about, the bedrooms and bathrooms arent a problem

I am using my own flat as a reference and it works out at 4.3 watts per m2, the designs for the other flats, one works out nicely with good pitching at 4.5 watts per m2, the other is the tricky one, its coming out at either 4 watts or 7.3 watts per m2, the latter gives a more pleasing layout and better coverage but I think it will be too much light, OK I could fit lower wattage ones but I have too many 7 watt ones as it is.

[Daft Doctor]

Fair point Gluestick, but even at 461W total consumption, it represents less than the 10x GU10 50W 240V halogen downlighters we had in our kitchen in the UK, which were on almost constantly (so almost constantly needing to be replaced). When you have a 13 year old who never turns a light off, then you can easily recoup the cost of the LED bulbs, which of course is coming down all the time.

No problems in here with Wifi, but it is interesting to know that it could be a possibility.

[Théière]

I understand what you are saying Gluey but with my whole house on LED although predominantly with low voltage and remote drivers but not always and no radio issues, even with DAB radio and wifi hasn't suffered either so I wouldn't mind using a RFI meter see how bad or not this issue is.

Chancer I would say about 4.5 watts per m2. In one room in particular I had the same problem so moved it all round a bit to minimise any noticeable difference in dimension. You don't really notice the 100mm or so.

[Chancer]

That is encouraging, I am going to have to compromise on one of them with a larger than desirable gap of  80cm at the sides of the room.

I really wish that I had bough a light meter to have compared before and after lux readings, with the CFL's I probably had 1.5 watts/m2 in the kitchen and 1 watt/m2 in the lounge and had to use additional wall lighting.

I used 2 off 1 watt led GU10's in the new small bathrooms initially as chantier lights and they were completely pathetic like the dim illumination of the embers of a campfire.

To have arrived at a similar figure of 4.5 watts/m2 was it by experimentation, luck or your gut feeling and the aesthetics?

Mine was the latter and is from 7 watt downlighters pitched at around 1.2m with a 60cm spacing from the walls, all of which vary somewhat because of the constraints of the room shapes, dimensions and the ceiling fourrures, what is your preferred pitch and wattage?

I am enjoying the new challenge and Learning, I enjoy embracing new things especially when they bring improvements to my life beyond the initial pleasure of Learning and gaining a new skill, its a shame osome thers fiercely and stubbornly resist anything new or change, its a really entrenched attitude around these parts.

[Théière]

Chancer, partly by experimentation and looking up at my lounge ceiling, bedroom ceiling etc. My tiny bathroom is 1.4m x 3.2m and uses 3 x 5w and that's about right for that room. The lounge I positioned to suit display units etc so two arcs not straight lines.  In the bedroom they were placed to avoid light to retina line of sight.  On suite shower 2 x 5w and that's tiny at 90cm wide x 3m although if I were doing it again I would use 3 better spread out like the ones I linked to yesterday possibly the 6w version.  The kitchen has 4.5w per 0.5m over the works tops  but no under cabinet lamps which is a mistake I wouldn't repeat.  I went to my toolbox for the lux meter and must have put it somewhere else but need to locate it for feedback on the slim lights I linked to, their diffusers are a little on the thick side I feel that could be improved upon.

[mint]

Generally speaking and I will be checking the specific model, if I bought a cooker hood already fitted with halogen lights, can I readily have them changed to LEDs?

[Théière]

Generally yes, provided they are a standard pattern.

[Jonzjob]

I did ours. I bought a 10 watt led transformer and 2 G4 (I think) led bulbs. They are the very small bulbs. Slotted the transformer into place where the halogen transformer was, connected it up and fitted the led bulbs. The longest part of the job was refitting the hood into the chimney it fits in above the hob..

Goos job done, cost was less the a tenner and a nice light to boot

Most of the halogen lights I have seen in hoods are the G4 12v type and it's better to get a proper led transformer as it provides the 12v DC the leds need. I believe that they will work off a halogen transformer, it produces 12v AC, but that it can cause flicker and shortens the leds life. I have only been told this and I have never tried it. So if in doubt??

[Quillan]

Amazon have a sale on at the moment (according to the email I got from them). 'Warm' lamps for £18 for 10, thats the ones that let out the same sort of light as old fashioned bulbs.

[mint]

Thank you, Q, but what I really, really want to know is whether it's technically possible to change the hologen lights on a new Electrolux cooker hood for LEDs?

I might be ordering later today so I'd like to know whether you or anyone else on here has an answer.  I could ring up the supplier but I'd like to hear your thoughts first so I can ask the question more confidently.........if that makes sense!

[Quillan]

To be honest Mint it would help if we knew the make and model number and even better a link to the one your going to buy. A quick look (on their website) indicates they use a selection of different lamp bulbs depending on model.

[Jonzjob]

As I said Mint, you can change them, but you will also need a led transformer as leds run on DC current and halogen run on both AC & DC. Halogen lights usually have an AC transformer hence the need to change it.

I fitted 2 of THESE  and something very similar to THIS and they work a treat. All you need to connect them is some chocolat block connectors and, if you aren't sure about the change, an electriction [kiss]