Anybody up for an arguement?

[mint]

I'm throwing down the gauntlet and doing my bit to start a brawl[:D]

Firstly, I want to say that I shall be eternally grateful that it's not Jeremy Corbyn or the Labour Party calling all the shots in this crisis.

Imagine if it were Labour talking about restricting public movement, paying 80% of employed people's salaries, revoking National Health Insurance, talking about "reverse" income tax, stopping school exams, etc etc.  The Daily Mail and the Daily Torygraph would have such an outpouring of scorn and invective that they would be drowning themselves in self-righteousness.

Now, all of a sudden left wing and socialist policies are the "only way" to get us through this?  Nanny State?  YES, all these things have their place...who'd have believed it!

Grecian, where are you to fight my corner?  Come on and join in right, left and middle of the roaders!  Exercise your mental muscles, supposed to be good for you!

Life, as we know it, might be a hell of a long time away and we need to keep the Forum going!

[woolybanana]

Yipppeeededoodah, someone is bored and wants to post.

When the sun goes in and the cold east wind is too much, I will come and post.

Well, such measures as the govt has taken are not on ideological grounds but, as ever with the Tories, on pragmatic ones. Wartime, which this is, is never ‘normal’.

The Chuckle Brothers might well have been forced to do the same but would have been rubbing their hands with glee at stuffing the wealthier section of the population, having already wrecked the stock market.

There remains a huge problem, of course, which is how the heck all this largesse is gonna be paid for? Ok, money is cheap at the moment, but for how long? Will there be a significant rise in inflation, with attendant consequences?

[idun]

I will be eternally grateful that we don't have Corbyn, or May.

And when it is necessary then things have to be done. I doubt that anyone these days will be as ruthless as Churchill was when push will come to shove, but who knows.

Argue on here, isn't it strange that no one so far has said anything.

[chessie]

Thank goodness it's not the wrecking crew of the red corbin lot in charge; whatever restrictions, pilfering of this that and everything else - you can be damn sure that after this crisis is over - they would NOT be removing many of the restrictions/tax changes brought in under 'emergency' conditions.

At least with the PM I get the impression that he is liked, he appears to have a competent set of ministers, he has the support of the majority of the country, he's managed pretty well so far.   He, along with his team, have really had a 'baptism of fire' - and I actually feel sorry for him, and them, because it's not only a war crisis, but there's also Brexit in the mix - and he and the team have got a hell of a lot to deal with.

Bearing all that in mind - they are doing as good a job as possible and following the medical and scientific advice, rather than allowing themselves to be 'nagged;' and bullied by the Twitterati z-list facebook lot who regularly took to sneering at those who voted Tory and Brexit.   It's a relief that that load of numpties have gone quiet.

It's a case of whatever the government does, there's always a group who will criticise; there's always a group with 'hindsight/foresight' who know so much more, and so much better than anyone else.    At least they think they do - but they damn well don't - because nobodoy knows to deal effectively with this Chinese virus.

It will be interesting, once it's over, to see whether various countries stand back, take a deep breath, and re-assess their dependence on China.   Because the JIT supply lines are broken - and we can see for ourselves that such reliance on one country to produce so much of our 'stuff', at low wages, is NOT the best way for a people, for a country - or for the world.

And until China bans totally THEIR OBSCENE, FILTHY, DISGUSTING, CRUEL WET MARKETS where this virus has come from, as did MERS and SARS and Bird flu, I, for one, would love to boycott where possible anything made in china.

I had an uncle who was in Japan (in Marines ?) - during WW2;  after the horrors he saw there he vowed he would never, ever buy anything from Japan if he possibly could avoid it - and that extended to their cars.

Maybe we should all re-assess what we buy, and where it comes from.

But I certainly have the impression that the Government are doing the very best they can; and to be honest the idea of TM in charge would fill me with despair, gloom and depression (imagine that face, and that voice, announcing closing this, that and everything else - drive one to drink).    And if that load of red commies were in charge I'd definitely feel like fleeing the country asap when possible.   In fact, had I been living in the UK and those red idiots had become the UK's government I would have left the country asap.  Having seen the damage caused by their trade union commie idiots which destroyed our manufacturing during the 70's, I'd have done a runner - and encouraged my daughter and family to have done the same.

So yes, I'm extremely glad - for my UK's family sake, that this lot are in charge.

There's my colours nailed to the mast.......

Chessie (why haven't we got an emitcon with a stirring spoon ? !!!)

[BritinBretagne]

I would much rather have a Corbin in control than the chubby clown Johnson. He’s up a creek without a clue, not knowing to pander to people power or his financial friends. Corbin would have been focussed, informed and man enough to make the sort of decisions that are way above Johnson’s ability. Once this has come to an end Britain will have to rely on Mr Hopeless to work miracles to make the country stand on its own two feet again. You really couldn’t make it up.

Chess UE, what are you on, it’s addled you’re brain.

[woolybanana]

Corbyn, informed, yeah, by the commie unions to whom he was in hock and Momentum who would have told him what to do.

Nah, I am afraid the Chuckle Brothers would have drowned within ten minutes.

[NormanH]

Even setting aside my new nationality, and from a purely personal point of view I am much more concerned by what is happening in France than what is going on in the UK.

https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/03/17/ne-pas-toucher-son-visage-rester-a-distance-des-autres-clients-comment-faire-ses-courses-par-temps-de-coronavirus_6033426_3244.html

[nomoss]

Well, watching TV from the UK, and the way people there are behaving, all I can say is that I'm glad we're in France.

If Boris is doing a good job, I'd hate to see what a bad job looks like.

[idun]

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

Hopefully  both live links, both countries it took off around 4th March, so pray tell my why the numbers are so much higher in France.

I have looked up testing figures , best I could find was from a few days ago and seemed that there was more UK testing than french. This ofcourse may have changed.

What I do not understand is the spread in Italy and in France.

Maybe I am wrong but it does not look, for the time being that the cases are going up as quickly in the UK. And I know it could, it isn't as if I don't know that.

  BUT looking at the figures, well, what lifestyle differences are there which have proliferated the spread in Italy especially  and Spain and also  in France.

[PaulT]

Here we are Mint - sorry do not know how to make it a live link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

As for the comment about Bonzo also having to deal with Brexit well that is of his own doing and just to get up Cameroons nose who was for remain.

Still, it could be worse and have Trump in charge.

Shame the experts informing the Govt got it wrong and had to change tack.

The ones I feel sorry for are the bookmakers. One is expecting to lose in excess of £100M because of the coronavirus.....but they could start taking bets on how many will die each day, that should help alleviate their hardship.

Seems such a shame that Labour cannot say 'you are doing a good job ib the circumstances' instead of McDonnel saying 'we would have paid 90% of wages'.

And yes, if comrade Corbyn had been in power....no, no, the left wing unions then their members would have also got a pay rise.

It will only be after all of this is over that it will be known if the right decisions were taken but far better to make decisions than not to.

I did read that experts are saying this could come back next winter....if this is over by then.

It would seem though that there is co-operation between the parties as the media was reporting that measures would not require a vote because of this.

Perhaps, the only other thing the Govt could do would be to require all bog rolls to be sent to Royal Mail and the postmen/women would deliver one each day to each household :)

Is the UK going to follow France is having to go out with a piece of paper. Did also hear that in Belgium being out without sufficient reason renders you liable to a 4000 euro fine and / or 3 months in prison!

[nomoss]

[quote user="idun"]..............................  BUT looking at the figures, well, what lifestyle differences are there which have proliferated the spread in Italy especially  and Spain and also  in France.[/quote]

Lots of old people living with their families? Especially in Italy.

EDIT: Possibly poor personal hygiene.

I watched a boy of about 15 picking his nose and wiping the results onto his trolley handle in our supermarket last week.

Wash your hands after touching anything extraneous, before touching your face, mouth, nose, or eyes!!!!

[NormanH]

Interesting sites thank you idun

I have been using https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html?#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

 One thing that interests me is the  number of deaths. Germany  has many more infected than either the UK or France, but many fewer deaths so far.

I hazard a guess that this is because of a number of factors

1) Germany  has tested many more people than either France or the UK, so the figures show more cases

2) Germany has about 5 times as many ventilators and emergency care beds

in the UK the NHS has been run down buy 10 years of Tory austerity leaving it ill-equipped to cope

in France the public Hospitals have also been underfunded; and I am not sure whether  the private clinics will be commandeered to help

https://www.lefigaro.fr/sciences/coronavirus-nous-lancons-un-appel-a-la-solidarite-des-soignants-de-france-20200321

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETVwicOWsAAwyXM?format=jpg&name=small

In both countries it is the madness of market economics applied to what should be a public service that has lead to the present lack of readiness to cope

[NormanH]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/21/coronavirus-asia-acted-west-dithered-hong-kong-taiwan-europe

[mint]

Thanks for all your replies, guys.  I haven't as yet managed to read all your links but I will do so systematically, one by one[:)]

At last we are moving to the element in the conversation about the political and ideological perspectives that I was hoping for.   I wish the circumstances weren't so dire but otherwise, I would have been pleased that at last all the talk isn't about there being no society only indivduals (Thatcherism) and nor about the "trickle down" benefits of rank greed.

At last we are getting mention of the collective instead of about individualism. For the time being at least, small mindedness is on the back burner and the "common good" is on every politician's lips.   Never mind surviving coronavirus, there is the survival of life on planet earth in the bigger picture, isn't there?

I just hope that when this horror is over, we will have learned from "other people", with the emphasis on "other" as in "outsiders" and those we are in danger of somehow classing as "inferior" to ourselves.  If a kinder, less materialistic and less selfish way of living comes about, then we would have learned at least one, if not the most important, lesson of all.

Off now to "beat the bounds", expression learned from OH in the last few days[:)]  Keep safe and well everybody and, for goodness sake, keep your distance! 

[PaulT]

In the UK they have said that if you think you have just mild symptoms do not contact NHS on 111 and self-isolate. All very good but it does mean that the actual number of cases is being under reported. Begs the question if it is intentional to understate the figures?

[Judith-aka-Judith]

What gets me in all of this is that the message to stay at home is being totally ignored in several countries, the UK is not the only country at fault.  The Mediterranean countries, where so far at least the spread and deaths are worse, asre all touchy feeley places, in pretty constant tiuch with their families, who live close by etc.  Less so in the UK but the palaver about not being able to see your mother is a farce, for year's we ignored it, got in touch as and when needed, hadn't lived near my family even then for years (jobs taken away, not fall outs!), and now I see my family once a year if I am lucky, but we email, ring each other, do facebook, etc et. I keep saying, it's not rocket science, you won't die if you don't see your family for a while, but you might die if you do at the moment.  Or what would be worse, they die because you've been in contact.

As for the politicians, they have been slow to take on board what has been happening, and this is all countries, even China.

What I do find heartwarming in all of this is the complete international co-operation amongst scientists and pharmaceutical companies to find a vaccine, or in the case of the malaria drug, a possible short term treatment, as soon as possible.  The fact that ALL are sharing the information they find immediately no matter what regime / political colour they are, is what is going to win this war in the end. But only if people do as they ask, and stay at home, so that the scientists have time to do their work correct and prove that the vaccine is viable and safe.

And South Korea has gone the testing and tracing route, which seems to have worked very well indeed.  Their curve is much lower than any other country's.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Judith-aka-Judith"] .................................... And South Korea has gone the testing and tracing route, which seems to have worked very well indeed.  Their curve is much lower than any other country's.

[/quote]

Except Japan. See Graphs 12 and 13  here

And this article: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/03/21/commentary/japan-commentary/japan-still-coronavirus-outlier/#.XnZH06FRUlQ