Price and tax differences

[woolybanana]

A purely theoretical question but I dont wanna hijack the price differences thread:

Can folk please hazard opinions as to whether they would be better off as individuals from a tax, rates and other fixed costs point of view in France or UK?

Presuming pensions and no mortgage or rent to pay?

[idun]

 Our council taxes are around the same as they were in France, accepting that things have changed in this regard since we left.

Income tax is higher in the UK.

With regards to other costs, people use differing amounts of

gas/electric/water so comparing is difficult. Even with how we use our other things like tv's, mobiles and the internet also vary.

With brexit, remember that[Www], I keep wondering if we would be better off moving back, but I would say we would not. Ofcourse we would have to start paying CSG etc etc and our health top up and they would be costly for us, and cost more than those bills like income tax that we pay at the moment.

Also, for the time being we have free prescriptions and bus passes and as we went for town living use them a lot. Things ofcourse could change, because the government will

have to rake money back in, but so far, appreciated.

So hard to say wooly, also remember I live in the NE and things can be cheaper here, so yes, we are better off in the UK.

A good friend in France, and they are by no means 'poor' moans a lot about french prices and never ceases to tell me how much things have gone up since we left. I should ask other friends too, but I keep forgetting.[blink]

 

[idun]

If you want to see how much income tax you might pay go onto

'listentotaxman.com'.

[EuroTr@sh]

I think tax rates in both countries may change in the near future. Debts have to be repaid.

[idun]

 As we have to do self assessment, and only pay twice a year, I have already started putting away extra for extra income tax. I am expecting this.

One way or another, the government will need more money from the people, well those who pay that is. Sure the very rich and corporate like affairs, will wriggle out of the increases somehow..... I would love to be wrong about this though!

[chessie]

As always it's the poor that will pay the most - the rich remain rich because they can pay the ones that have made the rules who also know how to get round the rules.

It's us at the bottom that will hurt the most.

As for differences between UK and France - I think a lot would depend on where one lives in France - and where one lives in the UK.

South of France, warmer climate, lower heating bills - would have to be compared with south coast of UK.

Much further north in France, cold winters - heating bills comparable to north of England or southern Scotland perhaps - or even lovely, wet Wales.

Here in France live in a rural area you need two cars - so there's double the cost of insurance and CT.  Live in a large village or town in the UK and there's taxis, buses, trains - no need to even own a car.....

We, as pensioners are feeling the pinch a bit;  I've kept some supermarket receipts from 12 years ago - and food bill has definitely increased quite a bit, even though it's for more or less the same items every large supermarket shop.

Cost of electricity - ouch.

Cost of car insurance - double ouch.

Tax d' hab - less than UK council tax (for comparable size house)

Tax - I think France wins on this, a bit, at least for our circumstances - but you would have to really do a spread-sheet to work out your own tax hit.

But then I look out the windows - and see green fields, beautiful trees, sometimes deer in the next fields, and rabbits; I can hear nightingales - in spring - all around the house;  owls hooting away (beautiful sounds) during the day - yes they do, and at night.

Wonderful butterflies on the buddleia bushes;  a couple of bats summer roosting in the garage; the busy little geckos darting everywhere, listening to the frogs croaking away through the day and night in spring.....

And I can enjoy my swimming pool, and a large garden, and a shed to sit in and enjoy the peace and quiet (well, except for the big boys toys driving up and down the fields).

We'd need far more money than we'll ever have to find similar location in UK, - so in those terms I feel rich living in France - even though we're as poor as church mice compared to many of our friends.....

Case of 'pays your money....'

Chessie

[idun]

  Chessie you have well illustrated how different we all are.

I have watched some of these programs, people buying abroad and they coo and cor about some views, and me and husband just look at one another and shrug. Not that the view is 'bad' but as fantastic as is being suggested.... well to us, it is not.

Also, people, especially retirees, seem to move to the wilds of France, nulle part, with lots of land. I shall never get that. I don't understand how lots of people  chose their

new home when they are getting older, including an elderly family member who moved to the top of a steep hill and the road a dead end, at that point. They cannot manage to get up or down it unaided these days.

I live in a town now, with two handkerchief gardens, which is all I want these days. Opposite a green space then a few houses, then trees, and the next thing I can see is hills in the distance that are only 10 minutes drive  away as is splendid country side, but I wouldn't live 'there' I'd rather be here with my bus stops almost outside the house, and shops within easy walking distance as well as all other services I could possibly want.

I know some english people in France who sold their house, and bought somewhere with 3000m2 of land, well into their 70's and go on about it, as if it is commendable. I remain absolutely nonplussed about it and this 'desire'.

I think that I am rather lucky with my nature, I don't suffer 'envie', simply confusion about what others chose. And I look upon 'envie' as suffering, as I have one friend who all too often desires more than they can have, and I would suppose is jealous of many. They have a lot more things and money than me....... and it doesn't make them particularly happy.

So why a bigger house than in France. The first few things on our list were good access to public transport, garage and workshop, east or north facing kitchen and very small garden.  The rest was a compromise and it is fine and great during the lockdown, as we can have our own space...... never imagined we would need it, but it is great to have.

I am pragmatic and for the most part feel content, is that feeling 'rich'....... never looked at it like that.

[EuroTr@sh]

I am more like you idun but I do understand how good it must feel for people who have spent all or a lot of their working life in the UK wishing they could afford a bigger house or more land in a nicer environment but never able to do it, and then are able to fulfill that wish in France later in life. It's always good to make a dream come true.

Saying that I am currently in Wales living on the proverbial shoestring in basic accommodation but with everything I need, and I'm surrounded by stunning scenery.. Property is cheap here. You don't have to move to France to find an affordable place to live in beautiful countryside if that's what you want..

[pomme]

With the death of a couple of friends in the last few months (not coronavirus-related), and with the changes which could occur from 1 Jan 2021, it seemed a good time to do a review of our inheritance, finances, etc. That included revising the document for our children to help them in understand our finances not only in the case of our deaths but also in case of long-term care. As part of that analysis I reviewed our incomings/outgoings. I did those in sterling and in euro given the possible exchange rate variation a lot next year. We have a second home in England (probably worth 2-3x the our French house) but half the size.

When we paid taxe habitation and taxe foncière it was approx the same figure in euro as we pay in council tax; now we only pay half for the taxe foncière alone

We have two cars and the insurance is a lot higher in France than in the UK, but does include breakdown cover

I can't compare house/contents insurance as the properties are so different but I suspect they are similar for similar properties.

I calculated electricity/gas/water would be same figure in euro in sterling.

Other living expenses are probably similar although food is more expensive in France, but possibly somewhat better quality.

No one has mentioned mutuelle health insurance csots which, by the time you reach retirement age can be quite significant.

And there is the possibility of Impôt sur la fortune immobilière (IFI), which replaced Impôt de solidarité sur la fortune (ISF) for some. After a couple of inheritances were added to our savings we were paying ISF for several years. The charge, which came to well over 25% of our pension incomes, was getting to the point where we did contemplate moving back to England.

There has been discussion of a return to a wealth tax (and for a flat tax) in France, for everyone from 0€, as solidarity. And a wealth tax in the UK is also now being talked about (but excluding pensions and main home).

[chessie]

Interesting points made on here.

Look at how the UK estate agents are now reporting huge upsurge in number of people who now want to move out of London and the big cities - to somewhere they can 'breath'.

Spend most of one's working life living in a suburban 3 bed semi crammed with neighbours on both sides, over the road, no privacy or peace and quiet in the back garden then it is perfectly understandable, after 40 odd years of living in a small house, with small space, little back garden and noisy neighbours - to have a dream of living in a detached place, with no noisy neighbours.   I'm speaking here from personal experience.  I knew what it was living cheek by jowl with neighbours, front, back and everywhere.   Depends on the neighbours, but oh boy - no matter how 'good' a neighbourhood is - there's always noisy families; they can't help it, children make noise, then they become teenagers !!

At the end of the day everyone's different;  we make different choices at different times of our lives.   Some people will be lucky in the UK with their neighbours and their houses;  some people have a dream.

Once they've realised the dream, moved to the large house needing renovation in deepest rural France - and when reality hits - then it's a question of character, and outlook.   An optimist would say 'OK, this is what we dreamed, we're here, never expected perfection but we'll enjoy it until such time.........'

A pessimist would say 'OK, this was my dream, I don't like it, it wasn't what I wanted, I'm miserable, can we move......' !!!!

For those of us who love the sunshine, need the sunshine then living in France is perfect.  

Wanting to have a few years of just peace and quiet and to listen to the birds ...France is perfect.

But needing sunshine the way I do, then beautiful, wonderful Wales just doesn't do it for me.  Most of the UK would cause me to suffer the 'black dog'.   It would have to be the south coast, Devon or Cornwall or the Isle of Wight.  All of which are rather expensive.   And a retirement complex - oh no thank you very much - the annual costs are very high and we couldn't afford.

As one becomes older then the thought of not having to bother with the wood burning stove, the need to drive everywhere, the difficulties of night driving, the remoteness will inevitably start to cause problems.   At that point, different stage of our lives, then we will re-assess and decide.  Stay in France in a town house in large town or small house on outskirts of bigger city.   Or even return to UK.  Who knows - but it'll be another part of our journey and adventure through life.

We're all different; different life chances, different backgrounds - it's what makes the world go round... !!!

Chessie

(still waiting for a wine glass icon on here - mods ? !!)

[EuroTr@sh]

Like ^^^^

[Weegie]

[BritinBretagne]

[quote user="chessie"]As always it's the poor that will pay the most - the rich remain rich because they can pay the ones that have made the rules who also know how to get round the rules.

It's us at the bottom that will hurt the most.

As for differences between UK and France - I think a lot would depend on where one lives in France - and where one lives in the UK.

South of France, warmer climate, lower heating bills - would have to be compared with south coast of UK.

Much further north in France, cold winters - heating bills comparable to north of England or southern Scotland perhaps - or even lovely, wet Wales.

Here in France live in a rural area you need two cars - so there's double the cost of insurance and CT.  Live in a large village or town in the UK and there's taxis, buses, trains - no need to even own a car.....

We, as pensioners are feeling the pinch a bit;  I've kept some supermarket receipts from 12 years ago - and food bill has definitely increased quite a bit, even though it's for more or less the same items every large supermarket shop.

Cost of electricity - ouch.

Cost of car insurance - double ouch.

Tax d' hab - less than UK council tax (for comparable size house)

Tax - I think France wins on this, a bit, at least for our circumstances - but you would have to really do a spread-sheet to work out your own tax hit.

But then I look out the windows - and see green fields, beautiful trees, sometimes deer in the next fields, and rabbits; I can hear nightingales - in spring - all around the house;  owls hooting away (beautiful sounds) during the day - yes they do, and at night.

Wonderful butterflies on the buddleia bushes;  a couple of bats summer roosting in the garage; the busy little geckos darting everywhere, listening to the frogs croaking away through the day and night in spring.....

And I can enjoy my swimming pool, and a large garden, and a shed to sit in and enjoy the peace and quiet (well, except for the big boys toys driving up and down the fields).

We'd need far more money than we'll ever have to find similar location in UK, - so in those terms I feel rich living in France - even though we're as poor as church mice compared to many of our friends.....

Case of 'pays your money....'

Chessie

[/quote]

I’m sure that you will find that the climate on the north coast of France is pretty similar to that on the south coast of England. They really are quite close to each other.

[BritinBretagne]

Where taxes, especially property taxes are concerned I’m better off in France by a country mile. (or should that be kilometre?)