Just a country

[Teamedup]

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/040921/202/428zm.html

 

En n'est jamais a l'abri....................

 

 

[Dick Smith]

I don't understand your French - what are you trying to say? And why the mysterious thread title?

[SaligoBay]

I take it TU means that wherever you go, there are some things that are always the same.

Perhaps c/en/on ?

[Jo53]

My reactions to this are:

1: 60 children!! and in a relatively short space of time (2 years). Worse than anything ever reported in the UK. How on earth was he able to carry this out? Very serious crimes too (rape and sexual assault of boys aged 3-14) THere must have been a real lack of awareness and lack of safeguards.

2. How is this man going to get a fair trial when this sort of reporting goes on. I've seen it in our local paper as well. No 'allegedly's - people are straightforwardly described as having done the crime in question before the court process has even started. The papers often seem to put in their twopennyworth as well and report that as fact - usually some cod-psychology type explanation of the crime. And there doesn't seem to be any restriction on comment, even by the parties directly involved, while the trial is going on. Very different from what we regard as the rules of a fair trial. Maybe this is in cases when the accused admits the crime, but it still seems a bit iffy.

Of course I'm not defending this man - he sounds like a monster - but he isn't yet convicted. I'm just commenting on how the legal process appears to be different here.

[SaligoBay]

I've wondered the same, Jo, when big-publicity court cases come on the evening news here in France.   Witnesses etc get interviewed for the camera and quite blatantly talk about the case as they see it - "of course he's guilty, he was driving too fast" etc, on their way into the court.

As you say, it's very different from the UK sub judice no-reporting thing (have I got the right legal term there?).

Any French legal eagles out there who can explain the differences between the systems?

p.s. please, no diatribes about the relative merits of French and UK justice systems.   They're BOTH cr*p, okay?  

[Teamedup]

OK Dick Smith, fautes d'orthographes...........culpable! There will be more on the english bit of this!

This article incensed me so much that I didn't go running for the bescherel or dictionnary......

This sort of thing is still not out of the closet in France, a very bad case here was persued by the authorities, but this goes on and kids have very little time to even do anything about someone doing such a thing to them. Get past 23 and they needn't bother telling anyone........ french 'justice' believes that if you can't be bothered to contact the authorities by that age, well let's leave the pedophiles at peace. Because if the authorities didn't believe that, the law would allow people to porte plainte for far longer and let these victims get justice. Pedophiles heaven really.........

[Dick Smith]

One of the less pleasant aspects of my previous life was dealing with abuse cases from the school end, and I can assure you that a large number of victims being abused in a short time happens, sometimes by people who ought to be worthy of trust, and worse than this. And you will not read about most of them, and most of the victims will never report because of the perceived shame, and even then a good lawyer can make a compelling case for acquittal against years-old evidence. It's ****ty and barbaric and it ruins lives. But it's not another reason for knocking France; it's a failing of humanity, not just the French.

[Teamedup]

Non, non, non, it may be a failing of humanity, however the law is clear and restrictive in France and that is then a french problem. After the age of 23 any plainte will not be acted upon on behalf of the victim and shows a grave lack of justice in the  system here.  Knock it, yes it needs discussing, knocking and changing.

[BJSLIV]

Mind you if you look at the Amnesty International Report on France

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/fra-summary-eng

As Loyd Grossman might say "Who would live in a country like thiiiiiis?"

Makes the UK same positively idyllic!

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/gbr-summary-eng

 

[Teamedup]

I know several AI members in France.

These things that are mentioned in the AI report are well known in France anyway. the sort of stuff that everyone knows, but nothing is done about. And Sarko has certainly changed things, and I'd thought that Pasqua was bad.........

 

[Dick Smith]

The AI report does not cover this area, and therefore it is not relevant. Very few countries escape criticism - look at Belgium.

Is it a matter of law (that is a statute of limitation) that a complaint after the age of 23 cannot be made, or a practice?

[Val_2]

This story was big news on the front of the papers last weekend. It made me shudder as my daughter lives in St.Brieuc but at least he has been caught and is undergoing  a trial etc. It is no different here to anywhere else where this sort of thing happens and people thinking that France is utopia should remember this. I often think about a convicted paedophile and rapist  who is now doing time here that used to live in our village and had quite a close and loving family,he is even in some of our photos of a fancy dress disco we had one Mardi Gras. This destroyed that family and after moving away, the wife and children have now returned to their original family home and are holding their heads up high.

[BJSLIV]

Dick

I thought that TU's point in calling this thread "Just Another Country" was that that France is  similar to any other. Same crimes , and in my posting same police problems, hence the posting.

A counterbalance to the land flowing in milk and honey view.

 

[Will]

And what about the cases that go undecteted and/or unreported? I well remember growing up in England in the 1950s and 60s and there was plenty of this stuff happening. For the most part we were too scared to say anything, or if we did we knew we wouldn't be believed, because the culprit was invariably somebody in a position of authority or a well-known local figure. A few cases were discovered, usually people like schoolmasters who went that bit too far, but they were usually swept under the carpet so that the school, church, scout movement or whatever wouldn't be shamed.

For alll that's said about France being like England was 40 years ago, I can well believe it's still a bit like that, and an even bigger problem in France than cases like this would suggest.

Fortunately cases do come out into the open. There was one in our local paper last week about a man, now 82, apparently a respected public figure, who had run a centre for adolescents in the 1960s/1970s and is now accused of numerous sexual acts on minors (the case had not been concluded last week).

I thoroughly agree, too, about the difficulty of fair trials. Anthing involving children is an emotive subject, and even in the UK the masses assume anybody accused is guilty before even reaching court.

[Dick Smith]

Another difficulty (at least in the UK) is false accusation. Many teachers are accused, but very few are found guilty. Most, however, are tarred forever (which is one possible reason why their accusers do it). This factoid from the NASUWT website -

"Over the last few years there have been 1,782 allegations against NASUWT members alone.

In a staggering 1,686 no grounds have been discovered for prosecution."

So a very careful balance has to be struck, especially in societies which have a 'compensation culture'.

Does France have a similar system to the UK's 'List 99' - whereby all persons working with children are (supposedly) checked for any previous convictions in a range of offences before being employed?

[Jo53]

[quote]One of the less pleasant aspects of my previous life was dealing with abuse cases from the school end, and I can assure you that a large number of victims being abused in a short time happens, sometim...[/quote]

I fully agree it's a failing of humanity. I didn't mean to imply that the French have a worse problem than the British or anyone else in this regard. It was just that I was astonished at the number of children abused by one person in the space of two years - I've never heard of anything on this scale before,  and of course the cases that reach the British media are all I have to compare it with. Maybe I'm naive to say there should have been safeguards that could have stopped this. It's a sobering thought that it took 60 children to be abused before one was able to speak out and be believed.

 

[Cjb]

I recall from some of the child protection training that I received as a teacher, that the greatest threat of child abuse comes from within the family itself or from close friends of the family. Of course there are terrible incidents that are reported by the media which all of us are sickened by, but attacks by total strangers are extremely rare.

[Will]

I thoroughly agree with CJB about abusers usually being well known to the abused, at least in Britain, and there seems no reason why it should not be the same in France.

This does seem to be a big problem in France - bearing this topic in mind I paid particular attention to the reports of faits de la region in our local weekly paper which comes out every Thursday, and I have to say that there seemed to be as many, if not more, cases relating to infractions on minors than there were thefts. I don't think La Manche region should be any different from any other.

[Mistral]

Does France have a similar system to the UK's 'List 99' - whereby all persons working with children are (supposedly) checked for any previous convictions in a range of offences before being employed?

I'm not sure. When I started teaching as a non-fonctionnaire, they checked my qualifications, lungs and ability to speak English, but I don't remember them checking my previous convictions. That was to teach in a collège.

Our childminder is a nourrice agrée with the creche familiale run by the mairie and she has never been asked about a casier either. I have a nasty feeling that unless you are a fonctionnaire then they don't bother because you may only be working a short amount of time. When you take a concours, then you have to show your casier judiciaire

[Catalpa]

I have no idea whether there is more / less / the same amount of abuse in France vs say the UK but when French acquaintances (of very short acquaintance) push their very young children forward to us for kisses, are they conditioning their children to accept what might at some stage be unwanted or inappropriate behaviour from "trusted" adults?

That's an appallingly bald comment and I could no doubt have worded it better but I am sometimes surprised that on very brief knowledge of me and my husband 3 / 4 / 5 year-olds are expected / encouraged to behave in what to me is a very trusting way.

Or am I reading far too much into the greeting kiss here and bringing with me the UK perception that you don't dare touch a child anymore without risking it being viewed as inappropriate?

Carole

[Dick Smith]

I think you are reflecting the UK climate of opinion which makes showing any affection at all to a child completely unacceptable. You may not subscribe to it, but in the end it gets you, through a combination of guilt and fear of what people will assume about you. I don't think France is like that, yet. But then I don't think that showing affection to kids has anything to do with abuse, either.

[JohnM]

[quote]My reactions to this are: 1: 60 children!! and in a relatively short space of time (2 years). Worse than anything ever reported in the UK. How on earth was he able to carry this out? Very serious cri...[/quote]

I know this is slightly off topic but the use of the words "No 'allegedly's -" interested me. I was taught that the contestants of "Have I got news for you" were advised not to use that phrase. The defence against a libel charge is that what you are saying is true.... if you say "Allegedly" then you obviously are not sure it is true, so why should a Judge or Jury?

 

 

[Clarkkent]

[quote]I think you are reflecting the UK climate of opinion which makes showing any affection at all to a child completely unacceptable. You may not subscribe to it, but in the end it gets you, through a com...[/quote]

This, of course, comes from some of the most appalling journalism anywhere, and the cultural acceptance of anything American (remember the case of the 5 year old boy barred from going to school because he kissed a fellow girl pupil?)

And, I speak from experience, there is a feeling abroad that any man - hence all men - are potential child molesters and must be reported to the police for being male.

I don't think that situation prevails in France yet.

[SaligoBay]

2heads - I've often wondered about forcing children to kiss yucky adults too!

A French friend moved to New Zealand and was teaching there, and was feeling a bit lost with the strict DON'T TOUCH culture in schools.  At the same time I did a bit of teaching here in France, and was physically mobbed by affectionate kissing children every time I went in!

My only conclusion is that children aren't entirely stupid, and know who they do and don't like anyway, kissing or no kissing.  The kissing is just a politesse, not a statement of affection.

There's a neighbour here that none of us wimmin like, he's super-creepy and lecherous, and if we can avoid kissing him we do.  He does "proper" kisses right near your mouth, it's HORRIBLE!!!!  So if you meet him, you get in first with a hey ho and a hearty handshake, in true manly fashion.