How important is a university education?

[Cjb]

I appreciate that in the UK it's possible to carve out a successful career path without a degree (although this is arguably a difficult route which may mean often being overlooked for posts which are subsequently filled by graduates) and that there are a number of people who simply waste three years at university and emerge with a qualification that isn't worth the paper it's written on, but surely things in France are a little different?

The wide consensus amongst my french friends and family is that it's essential to have at least the BAC +2, and even then many young french people with the BAC +4/5 have difficulty finding long term employment with good career prospects. For many jobs you won't even be considered unless you have some form of tertiary education.

Should university education be solely seen as a means to an end, thus serving as a form of apprenticeship for the world of work, or are its goals a little more profound, for example, creating a well-educated society?

Will your children need a degree to succeed in France?

[Hegs]

>I appreciate that in the UK it's possible to carve out a successful career path without a degree

In my field in the UK it *was* possible to progress without a degree, but not for the intake who would have graduated over in the last 5 or 10 years. I presume teaching is the same :-)

As I understand it the difference however is that in the UK you just need *a* degree (in something, not necessarily the exact same discipline), in France you need the right degree for the job. Would that be fair?

[Miki]

Yes, I think that is a fair way of looking at it.

We know that our daughter will need her Bac plus 2 to get the work she seeks. In other words she is actually "training" for that job now.

Important, well certainly if you want your child to continue to live in France but if you feel you are a free spirit and that can work for a golden few, then I guess the Uni of life still works but for many, it doesn't.

I suppose giving your kids the chance to go on to Uni etc, is all about raising the odds on giving your kids the best opportunity in life.

If our daughter works hard to gain Bac +2, the work she is doing is good for a few other jobs BUT some of those will require +3 ............

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Miki,seeing you like to get personal,is this the same daughter who works in McDo flipping burgers?that needs a bac + Yours the son, grandson and great grandson of a free spirit

 

[Miki]

"Miki,seeing you like to get personal,is this the same daughter who works in McDo flipping burgers?that needs a bac Yours the son, grandson and great grandson of a free spirit"

Personal ? What are you going on about, do you think you are the only one who left school without any education then ?

This had sod all to do with you, so don't kids yourself it was solely for your viewing.

My daughter is best kept well out of it, getting personal with people's kids is not the right thing to do, would you like me to take stupid pathetic jibes at yours ? You come from the Uni of life you say, then you should know only too well, kids are kids and should be left well out of contentious things.

We are extremely proud of her, she does 32 hours plus at school and 60 hours a month at McDos, how do your working hours stand up to that then outie? Still looking are we ?

I must say, that I find it deeply sad that 3 generations have not been educated and I have to say that thankfully, some parents find that education is vital, not only for the kids to sek out a good career but to be able to write correctly, speak well and be able to talk to people on many subjects that one has studied. Life must be pretty shallow without some kind of education, surely ?

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

No,miki,if I thought that it was for my eyes only then you might well be right in saying that one could be described as paranoid,but since this is a public forum it does not apply.For hours worked double it and then some and you might understand how a poor uneducated boy from up north could afford 3 houses and a yacht,hard work and when I see the likes of your sort thinking that the world owes them a living because they have a degree pretending to be socialists it makes me smile.Like you say you are a boy from an estate in sarf londin bet you could not go back and live there,I have known many like you,I am here in france because I can be,you are not in sarf londin because you can not go back.ps check your spelling o wise one

 

[Cjb]

[quote]No,miki,if I thought that it was for my eyes only then you might well be right in saying that one could be described as paranoid,but since this is a public forum it does not apply.For hours worked dou...[/quote]

Three houses and a yacht??

Must have been all that tax-free money you earned?? Oh sorry, I forget, you don't like answering to that!!

[Miki]

"For hours worked double it and then some and you might understand how a poor uneducated boy from up north could afford 3 houses and a yacht,hard work and when I see the likes of your sort thinking that the world owes them a living because they have a degree pretending to be socialists it makes me smile."

Something is missing from your memory, I have never claimed a degree, let's see how long that can stick in your brain. Degrees and socialism go hand in hand as often as not, why wouldn't it, brains are not the property of the "ilks" alone. It so often only depends on whether the person can be motivated to utilise the cells they have, you weren't, obviously.

Now let me see, nothing adds up here...only a short while ago you went for an interview for a job but were not accepted but you might be called up?

So, how does double the hours come in to play then ?

I have never ever claimed that the world owes me anything, do you actually understand anything about education ? having a yacht, 3 houses and still be uneducated is not so clever. You could have been educated and have 6 houses and 2 yachts.....see it's all relative but not being educated, that simply flies over your head. You see in general, educated people don't have to work so hard, as the none educated to get the same objects. Think about it, well just think perhaps !!

Simple really, one just needs education to see it, that's all.

No I don't want to go back to West London(see your A-Z hasn't arrived yet), so why did that get brought up, it is like trying to do the Rubiks cube when trying to fathom out an outie post, no take that back, the Rubik was a doddle in comparison !

[Clarkkent]

What is the purpose of a university education? Certainly it should not be seen solely as a passport to a job. Universities are places for education, not for training, and undergraduates who believe that they should get jobs related to their academic discipline are being rather short sighted. Any employer worth his salt will recruit people for their potential, not current ability and be prepared to provide the training appropriate for the job concerned.

 

A year or so ago, parts of the British press were bewailing the fact that academic subjects like media studies and psychology were oversubscribed and soft options. I cannot speak for media studies but a graduate in psychology is generally literate, numerate, capable of analytical thinking and able to evaluate information. And these kinds of skills are what any graduate should possess – they are skills which are transferable to any situation. The first (and perhaps second and even third) job which most graduates will do could be done by almost anyone. The general skills acquired at university are precisely those which are required by decision makers. The higher one goes in any organisation, the less important are technical skills. The academic subject is merely a context within which these general skills can be developed.

 

The greater the number of graduates in a community the better able that community is at dealing with change and at developing strategies to survive. That, Outcast, is why young people are encouraged to go to university, not to satisfy the social climbing needs of parents. Your life, even “here in france” is made more tolerable by the infrastructure and framework which can only be effectively created by an educated workforce.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

C`kent,do not know if you are educated and if so to what level,but I can agree with some of what you post,as for media studies,well I read the other day that there are more people taking media studies than there are jobsMiki,read my post and you will find that I never once said that anyone going on to uni/higher education is a waste of space just the fact that they should pay for the education themselves and not one penny from my hard earned taxes.

Cjd,I paid my taxes and owe the tax man nothing,and indeed because we paid cash for our latest house in france (via the banks) we were investigated by the taxmanand even received a £300+rebate

[Clarkkent]

As to whether or not I am educated, Outcast, I shall leave to the judgement of others. I have known people who possessed strings of degrees but have been hard put to describe as "educated".

The point I was hoping you might identify, which I believe was implied in my posting, was that a community which provides university education for its members is laying foundations for its own prosperity. It is therefore right for taxpayers to fund universities because, in doing so, they are investing in their own future well-being and the benefit to the community is at least as great as that to individuals who receive tertiary education. If a media studies degree develops the general skills required at high organisational levels, then it is as valuable as a degree in any other discipline.

 

My contributions to this thread are now terminated.

[Cjb]

Cjd,I paid my taxes and owe the tax man nothing,and indeed because we paid cash for our latest house in france (via the banks) we were investigated by the taxmanand even received a £300+rebate

Loadsa money!!

If this is so, you must be the first yachtie to pay tax!! I thought the tax-free pay was one of the main incentives in this field of work??

 

[Russethouse]

>>media studies,well I read the other day that there are more people taking media studies than there are jobs<<

As my daughters degree is a BSc in Communications and Media Studies I took an interest in her potential employment prospects. At the time I researched it (a couple of years ago) Media Studies degrees were, I think, the second most useful for getting a job. I think they do a survey after set periods and ask students if they are in work.

[Weedon]

I, like many people buying a french property, have a couple of piles of old stones in different places.  If I wanted to know how many cubic metres I have in the two piles I might seek advice from somebody with a degree in mathematics. But if I wanted to shift them to one separate pile I would engage somebody with a strong back and biceps.  Of the two who would be the more successful and happy in life?

Come on people, its like my dads bigger then your dad.

weedon

[Miki]

"Come on people, its like my dads bigger then your dad"

How very strange, education being likened and compared as badly as that. We are discussing education for children not childish things.

I have known and met many people whose largest wish was that they had been educated better, I have not met many that wish they hadn't had a good education.

Happiness is one thing, no one would deny any person that in whatever they decided to do. One can be happy doing the most menial job but don't confuse having a good education with a state of mind.

Education is for life and one of mans greatest attributions. I for one have always wished that I could have gone further and the longer I live the more regrets about it I seem to get.

If one is happy not to be educated and not worry about one's offspring as all will be OK, well that's alright as well but never deny the power of education, it opens up "doors" otherwise firmly closed.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

C`kent,sorry to read that you no longer want to add any more posts on this thread,I did indeed see the point your making,but you do not see the whole point and I would of liked to taken it up with you and you seemed capable of reasonable thought.

Happiness,apart from being an old ken dodd songis a degree ,a large mortgage ,job insecurity,not to mention the new car(or the company car and the tax paid on it) and the kids,oh and the marriage break down that is higher amongst the new "middle class" and nearly missed this one the second home in the north of france.Yes education for any one who wants it,just let them pay for it.

[Weedon]

How very strange, education being likened and compared as badly as that. We are discussing education for children not childish things.

You may well be discussing education for children, but my point is that some of the postings are, in my opinion, childish and if they were placed by well educated people then there was a flaw in the teaching.  If I have put my point badly, as you say, it may be that I was not educated well enough to put it any better  than that.  My other point, and perhaps not put any better, was that there is a place for all of us and for a great many people a university education would be, and is wasted. 

It is not necessary to post frequently in order to be an interested part of any discussion and I suspect that many do not simply because if they do so every word they put down is dissected and they are called buffoons if a word is put badly in the eyes of others.

weedon

 

[Miki]

"...It is not necessary to post frequently in order to be an interested part of any discussion and I suspect that many do not simply because if they do so every word they put down is dissected and they are called buffoons if a word is put badly in the eyes of others"

I understood your first paragraph and can understand what you are saying without agreeing for the most part.

The second is again part of lifes rich tapestry. Whether they should or shouldn't post is ones perogative. Education or lack of it, has never stopped outie from posting.

I feel the people you talk about, must be even worse in a "vis a vis" situation. Here they can stay anonymous, whereas in the big world outside, will they be head down with nothing to say for fear of rebutall?

Most people are trying badly or otherwise to say that education is far better than non educated, that's all. The "for" points make it a stronger case than those against I reckon.

[Tresco]

Hegs said earlier

'As I understand it the difference however is that in the UK you just need *a* degree (in something, not necessarily the exact same discipline), in France you need the right degree for the job. Would that be fair?'

Miki who has children going through the system here seems to agree with that, and it's my impression too. That's a big difference between France and England, that once you choose your career path here, you seem to have to stick to it. Certainly my neighbours and people we meet at do's are bemused by the number of different jobs I have had. So much so that I have found myself in tricky conversations (linguistically) trying to explain the difference as I see it.

With regard to University education, I agree entirely with Clark Kents comments in his two posts here.

Those people who resent their 'hard earned taxes' being used for university level education, or presumably any other sort of further education for adults, could also ask themselves why I, or anyone else should pay taxes for their children to attend school from 4 to 16 or 18. Let's throw in the cost of those childrens health care too. Perhaps those people would prefer a return to the days of 'ragged schools', or of high infant mortality?

tresco

 

 

[vrooje<BR>Cheers,<br>-Brooke<BR><br><B><A TARGET=blank HREF="http:www.experienceburgundy.com">http:www.experienceburgundy.com<A><B>]

I feel the people you talk about, must be even worse in a "vis a vis" situation. Here they can stay anonymous, whereas in the big world outside, will they be head down with nothing to say for fear of rebutall?

Perhaps it is instead that those of us who read but do not join in the bickering are the ones who recognize that our energy is better spent in the "big world outside," rather than in an anonymous forum where no one is accountable and people are more rude to each other than they would be were they to meet on the street.

A statement whose impact is somewhat lessened by the fact that I'm posting at all, but that's just the mood I'm in at the moment.

[Tresco]

i can't imagine bumping into someone on the street and suddenly striking up a conversation about the ins and outs of university education.

The weather perhaps, little chance of 'bickering' there.

tresco

[Miki]

"Perhaps it is instead that those of us who read but do not join in the bickering are the ones who recognize that our energy is better spent in the "big world outside," rather than in an anonymous forum where no one is accountable and people are more rude to each other than they would be were they to meet on the street."

Really, so I cannot see that you are actually in France, where one has to learn to live among some extremely rude people. I think we are all accountable wherever we "talk" There have been many people banned from this and other forums for overstepping the T&C's.

"A statement whose impact is somewhat lessened by the fact that I'm posting at all, but that's just the mood I'm in at the moment"

Very much lessened indeed.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Tesco,what would make you strike up a conversation in a french street with anyone or lets say I think its cold and you think its warm,I understand that you are in 17,qui ou non?

 

 

[Cjb]

[quote]Tesco,what would make you strike up a conversation in a french street with anyone or lets say I think its cold and you think its warm,I understand that you are in 17,qui ou non?[/quote]

Oui or Non!!

Qui = Who

[RobS]

Miki,

If we were to bump into each other on the street, I think the conversation would be football. Although I'm rooting for you, I actually want The Arse to win tonight, to do us Villans a favour. You don't mind waiting do you?

As for University education, we encouraged both our girls to go and have paid out about 10k for them to get average degrees (one 2.1 and one 2.2). In addition they are both about 12-13k in debt. No doubt this is nowhere near the full cost of educating them through university, but I don't see that the government shouldn't contribute, as they want the skills pool to increase and it also keeps the unemployment figures down.