Has TB ever asked himself?????

[Evianers]

Am not certain whether this topic has been covered before, but on wonders whether anyone in the government [or even opposition for that matter] has ever asked themselves why it is that so many from the British Isles are upping stakes and leaving for pastures new? It seems it is fast becoming a mass exodus with everyone knowing someone else who has left to settle elsewhere, many of them in France and Spain. There must be some very significant reasons.

[Teamedup]

Well as the govt was told by the french, we send you our young and you send us your old, maybe he is laughing his socks off. All the retraite that will be hitting the french health system sooner or later rather than the NHS. No social services to provide, or bus passes or anything.

Economically it may well be very good for the UK Govt.

Also there are more french in the UK than brits in France for the time being too.

 

The 'why' well I often wonder that myself, so really cannot answer that bit.

 

 

[Iceni]

"Has TB ever asked himself?????"

Even if he did what are the chances of a legal,decent, honest and truthful answer from an MP ?

John

not

 

[Clarkkent]

Am not certain whether this topic has been covered before, but on wonders whether anyone in the government [or even opposition for that matter] has ever asked themselves why it is that so many from the British Isles are upping stakes and leaving for pastures new? It seems it is fast becoming a mass exodus with everyone knowing someone else who has left to settle elsewhere, many of them in France and Spain. There must be some very significant reasons.

This question is very interesting - not really in terms of the question as posed but in terms of the poster's perceptions. The answer really is "'twas ever thus". Britain has always been a high emigration/immigration country. I doubt that the number leaving now is any different from what it always has been - could you provide evidence (not impressions) of "mass exodus"? The number of people who post on this forum is very small compared with the number of people with houses in France. Perhaps some members are re-inforcing each other's judgements?

As TU points out, there are as many French people living in Britain as there are Britons living in France, the difference being that these are mostly young ambitious people whose loss, at the present, France can barely afford. These are the people who will regenerate France's economy.

Is it not also interesting to consider that, because of their time of life, these British "escapees" are placing a greater burdon on the already near-bankrupt French health system?

[RobS]

Its usually economics that dictates migration/immigration. In the case of the young French migrating to the UK, they can earn much more over here, so that is there reason for moving. In the case of elderly UK citizens moving to France, it is because of cheaper property prices (and warmer weather) that allows them to sell a UK property and buy a better and cheaper home in France. It also leaves a lump sum to boost their pension.

[SaligoBay]

Yup, France worries about its brain drain too, as youngsters leave to cross the Channel and the Atlantic for better job opportunities.

And according to INSEE, lots of them don't come back to France.  Unlike the high number of Brits who hotfoot it back to Britain when they se rendent comte of the limitations of the French system.

Bof, it's just people moving round the world, as they've done since the Stone Age. 

 

[Sprogster]

A significant percentage of Brits that move to continental Europe return to Blighty eventually.

Of the people I know who have moved to France and Spain over the years , the majority have returned after two to five years on average.

Main reasons seem to be money, unhappy partner or children, bereavment, language and health.

Brits always have had a wanderlust. I read somewhere that Brits travel abroad more the any other nation.  Something to do with the weather and being a small island perhaps!!

[Coco]

Brits always have had a wanderlust. I read somewhere that Brits travel abroad more the any other nation.  Something to do with the weather and being a small island perhaps!!

What???  Even more than Kiwis?  I can't believe that!

[letrangere]

 

Yup, France worries about its brain drain too, as youngsters leave to cross the Channel and the Atlantic for better job opportunities.

And according to INSEE, lots of them don't come back to France.  Unlike the high number of Brits who hotfoot it back to Britain when they se rendent comte of the limitations of the French system.

There was a very interesting article based on an INSEE report only recently saying precisely this, perhaps you read it, SB?  And you see it too amongst the French expatriate community abroad.   Perhaps it's just me but looking around the French and Belgian people I know, a huge percentage of them were born abroad (Algeria (several), Cote d'Ivoire, Congo), so it isn't something new.

M

[Iceni]

Most of the Britons leaving for France are burnt-out has-beens who will shortly become net absorbers of resources, not contributors.

So you are not a burnt out has-been but a nice upright person, just the sort that France needs perhaps.

Please don't emulate the papers you seem to hate and make comments like that. I work in France and pay my dues, in the UK I could well have been retired - oh sorry - a nasty horrid little drain on the state purses. OH would def. have been a skiver as the NHS said he would never walk again in 2000 let alone work again - he is now renovating a barn and is an active member of the local French community.

As members of the EU we can go where we want at what age we want without people making nasty snide cracks. Perhaps it is views like yours that make some of us up-sticks and come somewhere where we actually feel welcome.

I am grateful that you only have a second home here, your neighbours, Daily Mail readers or not, do not have to put up with this typical DM type of mentality, or perhaps you prefer the Sun?

[Evianers]

Bravo, bravo Di. Could not have put it more succinctly myself. In fact, I have complained about the comment to the Forum Admin. So far there hasn't been any response.....

BTW, we don't actually live in France yet but certainly contribute in taxes, owning a house there.

[Coco]

Well done Di!  I was going to comment last night but had had a few glasses of wine, so thought I had better restrain myself, or I might have ended up getting banned!  It may well have only be said to try and wind people up - but if it wasn't, then this idiot obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, as more and more younger people are coming to France and finding work and therefore contributing.  We personally don't have "French jobs" but we are paying cotisations and (if the business goes well enough) taxes on our Chambres d'hotes, and we won't be in a financial position to retire for a good few years yet, so we're doing our bit for the French economy.  Besides, those Brits who are coming here at, or close to, retirement age are paid their pensions from the UK and old doesn't necessarily mean unfit and uge medical bills!

[Teamedup]

But being old does increase the risk of dependancy and running up huge medical costs. Something to do with us getting old and worn out perhaps, a very natural process as our cells can't keep up the reproducing the being young thing eternally.......... and we won't even discuss losing our marbles.

 

[Clarkkent]

So you are not a burnt out has-been but a nice upright person, just the sort that France needs perhaps.

No. I am just that - a burnt-out has-been now looking forward to a slow decline in health and well-being who will become more and more dependent of the services of whichever state I live in. And it is partly because of this that I choose to maintain my French house as a maison secondaire. Were I to move permanently to France I would contribute very little (in terms of my skills and expertise) but gradually demand an increasing amount of wealth I have not created.

I am very pleased that Di and Coco have found themselves useful and productive lives in France and wish them every success. Just because you do not fall into the category I describe does not invalidate my statement: most, not all, of the British people leaving for France are doing so to retire there, most of the French people leaving for Britain are not going there to retire. Why not read the totality of what I wrote and ignore the single phrase that annoys you?

And, Evianiers, just because someone makes a statement you do not agree with is no reason to demand removal of replies. In fact, I was offended by your assertion that there is "mass exodus" from the UK - but in retrospect find the statement just rather silly. Nor do I understand the veiled reference to Tony Blair in the heading. I don't try to restrict your right to say that but I do expect the right to make my own reposts to what I think was an ill-judged and confrontational posting. It seems ironic that people can make "clever" posts slagging off Britain and then demand censorship for replies which don't reflect their viewpoint. 

(And by the way, my preferred reading is The Independent and the Guardian.)

 

 

[Coco]

I do have to agree that your comments shouldn't be removed just because not everyone agrees with them but I think you also have to see that YOUR comments were much more confrontational than the original posting and I think you may be brain-washed by the belief that so many of the Brits moving to France are past it or close to retirement.  In my experience, and in this part of France there are ONE HELLUVALOT (too many for my liking, yes, I'm one of those who wants to close the doors once I'm here ) of Brits in this area, and only one couple (my own parents) are anywhere near retirement age. 

We moved to France because we have always wanted to live in France (for well over 20 years, since the age of 20) but most of the people we have come across are indeed leaving because they don't like the way TB is running the country.  Now whether you think they have got it right or not, the fact is, that is their perception, and their reason for leaving, so I don't think the title of this post is at all provocative or confrontational.  But being a Guardian reader you can probably see no wrong in our beloved leader. Now that IS confrontational!!!

[SaligoBay]

most of the people we have come across are indeed leaving because they don't like the way TB is running the country. 

But surely the mention of Tony Blair is a kipper rouge?  It suggests that people are basing their move on a political decision, and are looking for a country where a decent, upright, honest leader is directing the country in a positive and pleasing way.   So why are they coming to France, with CHIRAC in charge??????   That doesn't make sense!

People move to France because housing is cheaper and they can change from being a small English fish in a big English pond to being a big English fish in a small French pond.   And it's also reassuringly close to England, you know that dreadful place where Tony Blair is in charge. 

 

[Weedon]

Is it not also interesting to consider that, because of their time of life, these British "escapees" are placing a greater burden on the already near-bankrupt French health system?

 

Don't get yourself into too much of a sweat about that one because, as I understand it, once they get to "their time of life" the UK is billed for any treatment received and you will find that once anybody needs help in the health department, being a burden doesn't figure high in their priorities.

weedon

 

 

[letrangere]

It suggests that people are.....looking for a country where a decent, upright, honest leader is directing the country in a positive and pleasing way.   So why are they coming to France, with CHIRAC in charge??????   That doesn't make sense!

It probably is ignorance but I still think Brits automatically expect all foreign johnny politicians (especially presidents) to be evil, corrupt, perverted and thoroughly untrustworthy individuals.

People move to France because housing is cheaper and they can change from being a small English fish in a big English pond to being a big English fish in a small French pond.

Beautifully put, SB.

By the way, I never normally disagree with Coco but I had the misfortune to read something in the Guarniad by the appalling Polly Toynbee who was more critical of Tony Blair's administration than any right wing columnist.  Didn't the paper even toy with throwing its weight behind the Lib Dems at the election? 

M

[Teamedup]

Ah MWJ, I have really liked Polly Toynbee's articles, usually someone puts me onto them as I don't usually read the Guarniad.

[Iceni]

[quote]But being old does increase the risk of dependancy and running up huge medical costs. Something to do with us getting old and worn out perhaps, a very natural process as our cells can't keep up the re...[/quote]

But TU, for the last 'how many years’; your husband has paid into the French system and now you are going back to the UK where you will eventually retire and be a burden on that system. If you have continued to pay voluntary contributions, that is only for a state pension and does not cover health.

We have free movement in the EU, the reasons for moving are many, ours were not directly about TB, but what all the governments have allowed the UK to become. Our carpenter went back a few weeks ago after a couple of years and was kept awake the first night by gunfire, police and ambulances. That may well happen in parts of France but this area was not far from where I was brought up and we did not even have a lock on the door during the day as my aunt was disabled and everyone called round to see her while we were out.

There are many many reasons for leaving the UK or, to look at it another way, choosing France. We 'left'. We like France but would have moved on had we not. It is a bit like moving in the UK, you don't have to have a lifelong yearning to move somewhere, just the ability to accept that you are a newbie, a guest, and have to play by their rules, not they by yours.

By the way, from the people in the area we live and many elderly Brits we know both in France and the UK, retirement is all in the mind, we will NEVER retire until our bodies are too decrepit to do what we want to do, like a lot of things, use it or lose it. You don't have to be in perfect health to use this strategy. Remember 80 is the new 50 .

[Teamedup]

I am very aware of what we are doing.

 I'll do my utmost to not burden anyone in any sense in my old age. 

If it boils down to money then we will be paying taxes in the UK for the forseeable future when we move back and if we can will be paying NI contributions there too. It'll probably work out that half my husband's offical working time will have been in the UK and half in France.

I'll have to tell my 80 year old Dad that 80 is the new 50. 50 year olds in the past must have been pretty well worn out, as he is the only 80 year old I know and he knows too who isn't on constant medication of some sort. There must be others like him, but they must be fairly rare.

I agree age is all in the mind. I have to jolly up quite a few of my friends who are far younger than I am. They seem to lack a sense of adventure and fun which I believe helps keep life very interesting.

And this europe thing. Don't like it, never liked it. There are so many aspects of it that I dislike that I would need to write pages and pages. Just because it is law  and exists now etc doesn't mean to say that the united states of europe will last as an entity or that it is a good and proper thing now. I am really curious to see how the french will vote tomorrow.

[letrangere]

we will NEVER retire until our bodies are too decrepit to do what we want to do, like a lot of things, use it or lose it. You don't have to be in perfect health to use this strategy. Remember 80 is the new 50

This is very weird for I had precisely this conversation with my other half earlier this evening.  He criticises his friends who "retired" at 50 (which I've been nagging him to do for 3 years now) saying that they could easily live another 40 years so will have, in effect, spent half their adult life contributing nothing.  M 

[Iceni]

TU said

I'll have to tell my 80 year old Dad that 80 is the new 50. 50 year olds in the past must have been pretty well worn out, as he is the only 80 year old I know and he knows too who isn't on constant medication of some sort. There must be others like him, but they must be fairly rare.

It is not long ago that women were lucky to live much past 50 and when the pension was brought into the UK most men never made it to 65. If you don't/have not smoked and take reasonable care of yourself then 79.4 years is within average norms for a woman and 73.2 for men in the UK (I think the French figures are higher).

If you want to be really really worried, a UK scientist states:

I think the first person to live to 1,000 might be 60 already.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4003063.stm

I did check, it is not an April fool, think of the pension problems that would cause.

Lets be serious, most people do not care about the future, they stumble into middle age, collect their pensions and have 20, 30 and more years to get depressed, live of a state pension and realise that it is a long haul to the wooden box. Some of us took a good hard look at what was on offer while we could make a choice, chose a country that could offer us a better way of life and I might add a life that involves harder physical work but one that for some is rewarding. The physical work alone may increase our lifespan - it has def. reduced both our waistlines. It may all be down to lower house prices in the countryside of France but the property we bought would have cost £250K minimum in the UK and still needed all the renovation that the French one does.

People might not like 'Europe' but last time I looked the UK was part of it even if it did float along the edge. The UK is no longer the owner of the big red bit of the world, it has a large debt problem, far larger than most of Europe but is still part of it.

For some UK is heaven, for others it is hell and for yet others, they could not care less as long as they do what they want and s*d the folk whose life they make a misery.

Home is where you rest your head. It is currently France but has been in various places in three continents and having lived in Chile immediately after the coup I realise that what you read in the papers has no resemblance to reality in any way shape or form.

[Teamedup]

I agree with quite a bit of your post.

Old age is not something that suddenly arrives. We die or we get old. And if we don't decide how we want to live our old age when we are younger, then  getting old and just expecting automatic help is not on.

No desire to be immortal at all. Living to a thousand that doesn't feel right to me a very unnatural idea.

 

And geographically the British Isles are part of europe. I didn't really have that much against the EEC. Good trading agreements with neighbours seems very reasonable. The USE leaves me shuddering.

[letrangere]

(I think the French figures are higher).

I posted on the subject a couple of months back. French females have the highest life expectancy in Europe and almost the world.  French men on the otherhand were, if I remember rightly, a couple of years below their British counterparts.  M