Inland Revenue - They Found me!

[Quillan]

Fortunatly I am OK but I received a bill from the IR for £310 today sent to my address in France (how they got it I don't know) for 3 X £100 plus interest for not completeing a tax return since 2002/3.

I told them I was moving to France back in 2000/1 and closed my company down and paid all debts including tax's, they still had me down as working for my own company which no longer existed. Obviously they don't bother to cross check their own records

This is a purge apparently and they are sending letters and bills out to anyone they can find in the UK or abroad. If you have been paying tax in France then send them a letter and a copy of your French tax form and all will be OK. I guess Tony must be broke and is trying to get hold of any money he can.

[Nick Trollope]

Yeah, and me.

So I attempt to fill in a 2003/4 return, as requested. Can I get hold of them to ask a simple question? Can I as hell as like! One number (08701) whose call centre-type staff have no access to my file, held at my "local" tax office still. "Of course they will call you back, unless you are abroad sir", "you're not abroad are you?". ********s.

 

[Iceni]

"If you have been paying tax in France then send them a letter and a copy of your French tax form and all will be OK."

Q - this does not necessarily mean that you do not have to complete a UK return but I won't go into the possible scenarios here.

Tax (as with most things involving the state) is a very complicated subject, not for the faint hearted and, without intending to be offensive, this Forum is probably not ther best place for the confused to obtain advice.

Our tax returns for 2003/2004 were alleged to be late and HMIT imposed fines. However as we had no UK tax liability for that year these were waived. So they do have hearts after all.

John

not

 

 

[Russethouse]

Think its a general rule Di, according to my accountant. I hardly traded last year at all, but was scurrying around visulising a fine, the accountant just said 'there is no fine payable unless there is a balance due' and before you all shout perhaps there are exceptions but knowing I panic about tax she probably gave me the version suited to my circumstances.

[Dick Smith]

I'm afraid I was fined with no money owed. I'm also being pursued for a page from my 1998 return which the IR had already acknowledged receipt!

[Teamedup]

And wouldn't it help if people started declaring in France as soon as they could and not leaving it. It would be a sort of proof as to what date a person became french resident.

[Quillan]

[quote]And wouldn't it help if people started declaring in France as soon as they could and not leaving it. It would be a sort of proof as to what date a person became french resident.[/quote]

Exactly.

Iceni - It's not difficult if you are just an ordinary person who is getting 'done' for not filling in a tax return when you have already left the country and told them so in writing. If on the other hand you are using a limited company as some do in the UK to get round having to pay so much tax in France then it becomes more complicated. If you have no income from the UK other than that taxed as source such as share dividends, bank savings accounts etc and have a income in France you pay French tax and if you are resident here in France it is nothing to do with the UK tax man.

The thing about accountants in the UK is they make something very simple in to a black art just to get money from people. If you sit down and read the Inland Revenue updates sent regularily to you if your business registered address is not at your accountant and can read it's not very hard at all.

That aside it would seem that IR got hold of my address in France which is worrying as all my mail from the UK is sent via international redirection. If they can do it to me they can do it to others so I am just letting people know. If you are perfectly tax legal in France then you have nothing to worry about.

[Mpprh]

Hi

Just ignore the GBP100 penalties + interest.

The small print says that the penalties, fines, etc cannot exceed the amount of tax due. And the system & computer generated demands are worthless.

In our case, we had the monthly GBP 100 + interest penalties notices. It got up to GBP 5000+ although they had had all the required returns.

I recently opened one of the brown envelopes, and was happy to see a 0.00 at the bottom. So I phoned them to confirm that having been out of UK for 15 yrs, and having no UK income for 6 years, I was clean. The answer was "you've gone on to the semi dead file, and we'll send you a tax return in 2007".

They are a bit of a joke ?

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

[IAN_S]

Chris

I don't think that it is surprising that they had your address as the Impots know about you here don't they, and we know they communicate with IR because of double taxation agreements and they would want to know about any possible undeclared UK income that only the IR would know about.

I am sure this would also happen in reverse with French people living in the UK.

Cosy really, isn't it?

 

[Iceni]

"If you have no income from the UK other than that taxed as source such as share dividends, bank savings accounts etc and have a income in France you pay French tax and if you are resident here in France it is nothing to do with the UK tax man"

Just because you may not be liable for UK income tax does not necessarily mean that you are not required to submit a return.

All I have done is to advise people that LF may not be the best place for tax advice, see the well intentioned but misleading statements in this very thread - but you are all free to do as you wish.

John

not

[Quillan]

I should have added to my first post that I immediatly phoned them once I got their letter and they told me to write down the facts and send a copy of my French tax return/request. I would not suggest that you do this without contacting them by phone first as no doubt each person who answers your call will ask for something different.

Likewise I would not recommend that you don't register in France, rather the opposite and at the earliest opertunity.

I agree that the forum is not the place to get tax advice as each person has individual and/or different requirements/situations.

What I am saying is thats it a bit of a cheek fining me for not sending in a tax return when they have not supplied me with one (or three in my case) to complete, its not as if they didn't know where I live as proved by them sending a bill directly to me here in France or they could have sent them via my mail forwarding address. If they had sent me a tax assesment form I would have course filled it in or at least phoned them to ask them why I had one. I am also pointing out that they found me in France and may well be able to find others. If you have done everything correctly then you will not have a problem. It's not very difficult to find out what to do and there is information both in the forum and articals produced by proffesional accountants and advisors in the LF magazine.

[Mutts]

It seems that this year the Inland Revenue are cutting down on the amount of paper returns they send out. In some cases they are sending form P810(T) Tax Review form asking if you have any new kinds of taxable income; if you think you're not paying enough tax ; or if your tax claims are no longer relevant. "If your circumstances have changed significantly we may ask you to complete Tax Returns in future"  In other cases - where income is straightforward and constant, short returns are being sent.

Unfortunately the onus is on the individual to complete returns but the move is to complete online, or print your own forms from their website.

Self assessment was the dawn of a new error.

 

[Hereford]

Quote (approx)  " if you are a normal person who just has interest etc taxed at source....."

In this case, i.e. tax deducted at source, if you live in France you should be filling in a repayment claim form to get the tax back in the UK!  This interest should be declared on your French form, where they will impose both tax and CSG!

Don't let the taxman get more than his due, if you do not live in the UK then the tax deducted at source from interest is repayable - you still have personal allowances if you are British. As has been said before on other threads some income (rent and govt. pensions) are still taxed in the UK wherever you live but even then you must put it on the French form too.

Hereford

 

[Iceni]

IMO part of the prob with UK tax returns is the excessive amount of time that we are allowed to submit them - (almost) 6 months and the IR will calculate the tax and 10 months if you DIY. Compare this to the US with about 3 1/2 mths and France with around 3. We all know that work expands to fill the time allotted.

The burden is on the taxpayer in both UK and France to request a form if one is not received but as the judge said a long time ago - it is not up to the taxpayer to arrange his affairs to suit the taxman.

John

not

[David584]

Quote Peter The answer was "you've gone on to the semi dead file, and we'll send you a tax return in 2007".

Does that now mean that your file will be put into the "totally dead file"  upon the receipt of that return?

I can understand that with my pension (government) and with a British bank account ( into which the pension is paid and also pays taxable interest),  that the IR MIGHT have an interest in sending me a tax return. But with the double taxation treaty, I cannot understand how the UKIR can have any further interest in any shape or form of anyone who has moved to France "en toute", pays French taxes etc and STILL the UKIR want a tax return in 2007 ?? It does not make sense. Are the UKIR really that batty?

(No Peter, I am not asking you to declare on this forum what is PRIVATE to you)

Can someone explain please ?

 

[Mpprh]

David

I passed my tax exams in the early 70's. There have been a lot of budgets since, so .............. The workings of HMIT are as much a puzzle to me as to you !

They did say " Why not write saying you do not live here, you have no assets here, you have no income here and then we'll review your case."

Unfortunately, that is not enough to escape UK domicile, so I guess this will be a lifetime experience !

Peter

 

 

[Ron Avery]

[quote]Quote (approx) " if you are a normal person who just has interest etc taxed at source....." In this case, i.e. tax deducted at source, if you live in France you should be filling in a repayment cl...[/quote]

Straight from the horses mouth in Bootle  If your income in France has been exempted from UK income tax under the double taxation rule, then you do NOT declare it on your UK tax return.  However, if you receive interest on UK bank accounts or savings that is tax paid in the UK and declared in France, if the total tax paid in the UK is less than your personal allowance then you get that ALL that tax back without having to complete any other forms.    It is that easy.  So if you do not complete a UK tax return when asked to, not only are you risking a penalty and interest on your tax, but you are giving the UK Government your £4000

[LesLauriers]

Ron said:

"However, if you receive interest on UK bank accounts or savings that is tax paid in the UK and declared in France, if the total tax paid in the UK is less than your personal allowance then you get that ALL that tax back without having to complete any other forms. [Big Grin] It is that easy."

Even if it is over the personal allowance I do not pay tax in UK as I am a French resident tax payer and it is taxed in France. I have arranged for all interest to be paid tax free in UK.

[letrangere]

Quillan, no criticism intended please, I'm just making a general observation and that's that so few people take financial advice before leaving the UK.  I'm sure it's because most feel their financial situation doesn't merit paying an accountant or financial advisor, they think it's something only for the super rich.  But I'm sure most of us could benefit, especially with regard to when exactly to leave, status of pensions/investments, etc, etc.  Also, in my experience with IR, if you do fall foul of them (which I have), they're quite reasonable people if you talk to them and explain your situation.  M

[Ron Avery]

[quote]Ron said:"However, if you receive interest on UK bank accounts or savings that is tax paid in the UK and declared in France, if the total tax paid in the UK is less than your personal allowance then y...[/quote]

 If only it was that simple Les, With some UK banks,  Tesco for example, it is not possible to get your interest paid gross, so you have to claim it back.  I did as was told by Bootle and got all the tax I had paid in the UK showing as a overpayment for refund