Scam - Brits claiming benefits = tax black hole ???

[chessie]

The previous posts on benefit scam etc has become rather long and I've

become confused as so much has been written. Can we start again - but

on a slightly diferent tack - please ?

Let's turn the situation around a bit and look at it this way.

A UK citizen works throughout his life and pays all the NI

contributions and taxes. Hardly any use is made of the NHS, no regular

drugs, nothing...it is a little bit galling to find on moving to France

that 'top up' medical cover is needed. Even more annoying is the fact

that a lot of private pensions are taxed in the UK before they are

received - and there is no way round that - GBrown wants his share. The

same with any interest, any rent from property, any share dividends -

they are ALL taxed in the UK before being received here. So GBrown is

still insisting that we are tied in some way to the UK for tax purposes.

It is a shame that it isn't possible for any UK citizen to be able to

take with them their entitlement to free medical treatment in

recognition of all the contributions made over the years in the UK.

Reverse the situation for a French citizen who comes to live and work

in the UK. Whilst in the UK full contributions are made via NI and

taxes to free medical care etc and towards a pension. How would same

French citizen feel, on returning to France, to being told by the UK

government that he is NOT entitled to receive in full the pension to

which he has contributed - but that the UK government is going to

deduct 30% of his pension - for whatever convoluted civil service

jargonese they could conjure up. Don't you think said French citizen

would feel a little bit 'miffed' by such treatment?

Well, that is exactly what happens to UK citizens. Yes, we have chosen

to come and live in France. Yes, we accept that we have to join the

system and pay our way again. But having paid ALL our dues in the UK,

it does seem unfair that we now have to pay additional health insurance.

It does feel 'unfair', 'not quite right' - and that is possibly at the

root of the accusations being made (rightly or wrongly) at the moment

...Brits who come to France do lose out financially in quite a few -

unmentioned or overlooked - ways.

It is a shame that it isn't possible for any UK citizen to be able to

take with them their entitlement to free medical treatment in

recognition of the fact that we have contributed all our lives to pay

towards the health service, education, etc etc...In a fair world we

would be able to live in France without GBrown touching any of our

money; we would be able to bring with us our entitlement to free

healthcare which we have already paid for and using, say a voucher

system, if we needed healthcare out here then for the UK government to

refund in full to the French health service for any care that a retired

UK citizen might need.

After all, the UK is a major contributor to the EU - but we are 27th

out of 27 EU countries in receiving monies back from the EU; the health

voucher system might go a littl way to restoring the balance...

I've just thought of something else - I think I might have discovered a

'black hole' of taxation - I could be wrong on this and someone can

correct me. A typical situation; retired couple move from UK to France;

some of their tax liabilities HAVE to be paid in UK; when assessing tax

due in France allowances are made for taxes already paid in UK, so

total tax bill is XX minus Z already paid - and the French authorities

take their X. But what happens next? Does France say to UK - person RR

owes us XX in total in taxes - we can only collect X because you've

already taxed them - can we have our share? Then does GBrown turn round

to France and say 'sorry, I need and have taken first bit of their

taxes'. Overall, does this mean that the French in effect 'lose' the

taxes that - if GBrown hadn't already 'nicked' - would, rightly, have

gone into the French coffers...In which case then that is grossly

unfair to France. But also to any UK citizens; we are being taxed in

the UK - but we have to pay aditional medical insurance and France

loses the taxes that we should be paying out here. Now that does seem

rather illogical and unfair. Does anyone know/understand how all this

works and can explain it...or have I got this completely a..about...e

So sorry to have made this such a long post - but I'm in the mood for writing !!!!

Chessie (No 'smileys' - Firefox won't permit...!!!!!)

[Ron Avery]

"So sorry to have made this such a long post - but I'm in the mood for writing ".............. and repeating yourself over and over again[:)].

Is it really worth going over the health issue again, this is the second time in recent months and enough has been said,  it is not going to change, so if you want free health care go back to the UK, because you will not get it here, you get the same as the French.

But just to set the record straight and introduce some facts here, few if any private  pensions are taxed in the UK, if they are then that is the fault of the recipient..  Only Government, Civil service and local governmemt pensions are taxed in the UK, they have to be declared in France, but tax is not paid on these again  if the appropriate tax indemnity form is completed, but the amount receivd has to be declared so that health care contribution rates can be asessed and that is where we came in.............

[timc17]

Ron,

I know it's early in the morning but do you really mean what you've posted re UK pensions? UK pensioners receive a personal allowance like anyone else and any income they get above this is taxed at 22% or 40% - this includes state and any private pension. It's not the pensioners fault but the lunacy of the UK tax system.

 

tim

[Pangur]

[quote user="chessie"]Well, that is exactly what happens to UK citizens. Yes, we have chosen to come and live in France. Yes, we accept that we have to join the system and pay our way again. But having paid ALL our dues in the UK, it does seem unfair that we now have to pay additional health insurance.

In a fair world we would be able to live in France without GBrown touching any of our money; we would be able to bring with us our entitlement to free healthcare which we have already paid for and using, say a voucher system, if we needed healthcare out here then for the UK government to refund in full to the French health service for any care that a retired UK citizen might need.

[/quote]

With health care, you simply haven't paid into the same thing so it's fair that you shouldn't benefit from it.  Why should any government (French or UK) allow UK citizens who have decided to move to France, access a superior healthcare  system (according to WHO) indefinitely, having paid a fraction of the dues paid by French citizens?  UK citizens pay less social charges than French citizens - why allow them get French healthcare on the cheap?  I doubt that you have paid as much towards the NHS as a French citizen has paid towards the French healthcare system over a working life, even excluding the top up insurance!  The E forms allow for a period of transition, which seems fair.

The UK is, I believe, pretty unique in its totally free healthcare at the point of acess.  Your entitlement to free healthcare is applicable to the UK only and it should stay that way. 

I paid UK tax for 10 years - I didn't use the schools, rarely used the health service, claimed no benefits and essentially cost the UK taxpayer the minimum possible while paying my taxes, social insurance and pension contributions.  I don't expect "dues".  I moved to France knowing that some of the benefits I have built up will be lost and I will essentially have to start again. 

These things should be taken into account when people are deciding whether or not to make the move. 

[Deimos]

I have always thought health cover through contributions to

NI (or equivalents) is a bit like a saving scheme.  When young you pay the same percentages as when old but generally

will make little use of the system. 

However, as one ages it is probable that more use will be made of the

facilities.  True pay increase so

through a working life you pay a bit more as you get older, though this does

not tend to reflect the use of the system. 

Often, the time most people make most use of health care is after

retirement when they have long ago stopped contributing anything to NI (and the

like).  However, they have contributed

throughout their lives their lives so have already paid part “so to speak”.

EU possible makes things a bit more blurred.  The EU is not a single country with unified

laws, common healthcare, common taxation, etc. and is still a number of separate

countries.  The fact that a lot of

agreements exist that make e.g. emigrating exceptionally easy maybe make one

thing that that the different countries share more than they maybe do.  As to whether the EU should be more of a “single

country” – different people have very different opinions.

Ian

[Pangur]

I think most of the common policies have been set up with a view to making cross-country employment and business easier - it's not really geared towards EU citizens working all their lives in one country and retiring in another. 

I'm a great fan of the EU but I don't believe tax and health systems across Europe will ever be fully harmonised as there is no way (for example) a UK goverment would be elected if it was prepared to up employer social contributions to anywhere near French levels.

[Opalienne]

Exactly.   EU rules are about the free movement of labour - i.e. people moving because of work - and not people who are not working any more and who are living in a particular country through choice.  The EU has no competence in matters of healthcare systems, pensions, etc and very likely never will have.  

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but why don't people inform themselves properly before they move to another country?   There are very many things that are totally different in France.   Only last week we had to spend ages trying to help an English woman had had been threatened` with an 'interdiction bancaire' because of a bouncing cheque.   "I didn't know that you couldn't write a cheque when there was insufficient money in the bank", she said. "It's not like that in England......." 

[Ron Avery]

Tim wrote "I know it's early in the morning but do you really mean what you've posted re UK pensions?"

Yes Tim,  every word.  We are not talking about the old age pension here, this is about pensions from employers and other financial institutions. Yes,  you do get your personal allowance in the UK still if you get a "GovT type pension" or have interest and savings paid net  ie subject to UK tax, (many banks etc will not pay gross interest) and you then have to claim it back from the UK tax man, but you still have to declare the income in France and you get a PA here as well.  If you do not get a GovT type pension, once you have set up a tax indemnity arrangement with France, you do not have to declare your now tax free pension in the UK anymore because it is now treated as income in France, if the pension is  below your French PA you pay no income tax, although you might have pay a small amount of social charges.

[Teamedup]

Firstly living in France gives one a feel for national health insurance. In the UK it is a general term covers so many things, in France each has its own heading and each payment is taken seperately.

Health cover is not something we are saving for and we pay this 'insurance' as residents? (see below). We chose to live elsewhere and we are not covered. Still the choice is there to move and everyone knows that french health care requries for the most part some payment by most of the people that use it.

All this talk of robber G Brown etc. GB as in Great Britain has no exclusive monopoly on this sort of thing. When we leave France, french tax will  be due on french revenue (then UK tax will be due too, so the GBrown won't be getting his full bite of the cherry).  But more to the point WE WILL HAVE TO pay into the french health service even though we will have NO ENTITLEMENT in France. And when we come back on holiday will need an EHIC from the UK. We can't even continue our   mutualist as we will be no longer members of the CPAM, just financially topping them up.

 

AND that seems mad to me and I think that we should pay where we live. But in the end, it does all rather sound like swings and roundabouts really.

 

nb The above information is what I have been given so far, but I do need to go into this further.

[Deimos]

[quote

user="Deimos"]

I

have always thought health cover through contributions to NI (or equivalents)

is a bit like a saving scheme.

[/quote]

 

[quote

user="Teamedup"]

Health cover is not something we are saving for and we pay this 'insurance'

as residents? (see below).

[/quote]

When I used the word "saving" I meant pay more than using - i.e. whilst

younger paying disproportionately more in relation to the calls made on the

service, whereas as we get older we may easily start using more from the

service than we are effectively paying for. 

Nothing to do with different countries, emigrating, etc.  It was a point about things people say about

“pay more than I use” – which may be true now but may easily be the other way

round as one gets older.

 

Ian

[Russethouse]

THe NI you pay does not contribute to some NHS 'pot' with your name on it - it just funds current treatment for those that need it. So whether you have used the NHS or not is hardly relevant - it's a bit like buying holiday insurance on every holiday for years and never needing to claim.

The health issue is a big one, especially for those retiring to France, and the system is different so it really must be up to the individual to work out how this will effect them, before moving.

[Quillan]

Private Pensions – My friend gets one of these and he pays tax in the UK but not NI. Each year he gets a P60 which he then takes to the CPAM office in Limoux. They in turn tell him how much he has to pay for French health cover which is, in his case for him and his wife, around 2000€ per year which he considers well spent. He then of course has to get a ‘top up’ which costs him around a further 1000€ each year.

NI – The way I always understood this was that it was called National Insurance and was exactly that. You insured you’re self via the government for health cover which would be free when needed and against becoming unemployed. Like any insurance scheme if you didn’t pay you were not covered. Very simple and as we all know you do get health cover if you don’t pay in. If you are signing on your NI stamp is paid for you as part of your insurance against being made unemployed. Unfortunately the NI contribution no longer supports (and has not done for many a year) everything it’s supposed to so there is a need to supplement it with part of your tax payment.

NI vs. French system – The way I understood it and the way it works for me here in France is that I pay a higher percentage for my French health cover than I did for my NI cover in the UK. On closer inspection I see that I pay my French contribution after my tax allowances are taken out yet when in the UK the NI contribution is the first thing that is taken before every thing else i.e. tax and tax allowances. A few years back I applied both these calculations and discovered that whilst I paid more in France it is not as much as I first thought. It’s all down to exactly what percentage you are taking and from what if you see what I mean.

I do get a bit fed up with people claiming that because they have paid tax and NI all their life they are entitled to this and that. It never did nor never does if you are under state retirement age.

As for what tax etc pays for what in the UK I think Tony Blair let the real cat out the bag when the petrol delivery drivers went on strike a few years back in an effort to get the prices of petrol down. If memory serves me right he told them that if they didn’t go back to work and he had to drop the tax on fuel then the pensioners would not get their cold weather allowance or Christmas bonus because there would not be enough money in the kitty. This statement seemed to point to the fact that tax on petrol paid for peoples state OAP and probably a few other things as well.

 

[le bouffon]

There is a bit missing out here,the people who work and will have to work longer to pay for people pension,I ask why should 40% of the council tax go to pay public sector pensions and why should people work in the private sector pay for time serveres in the public sector who can retire at 60 and less.For me I think if one claims a British pension on the basis of having got it through the UK and had the tax advantages in the UK to build up that pension fund it should be taxed in the UK and if the income is then transfered to France it should be taxed again,no one is forced to live in France and people with a pension do not have to look for work once in France unlike some families that are here in France.

[Ron Avery]

Quillan

What your friend is doing is not correct and you are giving people on here the impression that you can choose where you are taxed,  you cannot.  If you live here,  you pay tax here,  unless you have one of those civil service type pensions that are taxed in the UK.  You sure your friend is on a private pension and not one of those Government ones? 

 If it is a "private pension" there is a very real risk that they will also be taxed on the pension in the UK and France, particularly as they have told CPAM about their earnings, their system is linked to the Impots system, it won't the Impots long to figure out that they have no record of  your friends income.  Again I'll post what I got from the UK Non Residents Office when I had the cheek to suggest,  before I came here, that I might like to be taxed in the UK[:)]:

"I would advise that your do NOT have a choice in the country to which you must pay tax.  You will be liable to tax in your country of residence, and failure to apply for exemption from UK tax may result in your being liable in both countries.

If you have any further queries for the Centre for Non-Residents,
please do not hesitate to contact us.  Our office is open Monday -
Friday, 7.30am until 5.00pm.

[Dog]

What is the absolute minimum insurance cover necessary in France?

I had never in my adult life been registered at a Doctors in the UK until the year before I came here and was forced to as I wanted to see a specialist and needed a quack to introduce me.

The tooth-puller I visited in France was quite happy to accept cash for his excellent pain free work.

I am content to pay my own way at all times but accept that there is an minor chance of being involved in an accident.

Or will I be left at the side of the road or be expected to sign before treatment as in the US.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Quillan

What your friend is doing is not correct and you are giving people on here the impression that you can choose where you are taxed,  you cannot.  If you live here,  you pay tax here,  unless you have one of those civil service type pensions that are taxed in the UK.  You sure your friend is on a private pension and not one of those Government ones? 

SNIP

[/quote]

It's a private pension taken at 55. He went to the tax office in Limoux, at my sugestion, after being told how important it was to 'get legal'. There is a guy there who deals with all the English people. My friend showed his P60 and told him it was for his pension and they tax guy told him he was not interested. He has filled in his French tax forms for the last two years, encloses a copy of his P60 stamped by the local mayors office (to prove it's authentic) and has paid nothing in tax here in France. Likewise I send copies of my dividend certificates showing amount and tax paid each year and they are not included on my tax form. All I can say from your comments that perhaps it's the old interpretaion of the rules thing changing from one area to another. When I registered for tax the first year they gave me all the tax back I had paid on my share dividends and added the total to my taxable income for that year but as I said the last three years I have paid nothing. Should the Limoux area expect a upturn in expats arriving drawing private pensions now I have said all this [:)] .

[LesLauriers]

Quillan, this is half a story and no story!

"My friend showed his P60 and told him it was for his pension and they tax guy told him he was not interested."

Neither should he be. He will only be interested in the gross amount of income received as that is what is taxable in France.

"He has filled in his French tax forms for the last two years, encloses

a copy of his P60 stamped by the local mayors office (to prove it's

authentic) and has paid nothing in tax here in France."

He may well pay nothing in tax in France, many people do not earn enough to pay tax in France. Blimey a Maire who can tell what a genuine P60 form is!

"I send copies of my dividend certificates showing amount and tax paid each year and they are not included on my tax form. "

You may well do, but if you do not fill the form showing those payments in the correct box you will not be taxed on them. Even if you do there are very generous allowances against dividend income so you may well have no tax to pay on them.

"it's the old interpretaion of the rules thing changing from one area to another. "

Probably on the mark, however, should it come to a controle then the guy at the tax office will be nowhere to be seen! In France ignorance of the rules is not a defence.

"There is a guy there who deals with all the English people."

Yes and in the words of the song " There's a guy down at the chip shop think's he's Elvis"

It is down to the individual who signs the return to ensure that it is correct, relying on someone who is so clearly ill informed (taking your post at face value) is dangerous. It happened to me the first time I went to the impots so I am aware that the impots are handing out a lot of poor advice, but I would not like to rely on that as defence.