French railways to face fines for their role in deporting Jews in WW2

[WJT]

Deimos, very interesting comments. Could you please then answer my question as to what you would do?

If you were the leader of a small country being bombed by terrorists within the civilian population that do not care about casualties within the population in fact the more the better?  I am genuinely interested to hear what you and others would do in this situation.  But please don't say that you would do nothing and allow the population of your country to be wiped out.

As far as humiliating the Palestinians, it is such a shame that they had such a crooked leader for so long and really was never a partner for negotiations not to mention personally benefited financially as well as other ways and did nothing for his poor people. In fact the worse off they were the stronger he became. Now they have elected terrorists to govern them that will not even recognise Israel. Interesting though that you think Israel should or be able to sort this out for them. I am amazed that Israel left Gaza as a buffer for security at this moment. I feel it was a big mistake as it was to leave southern Lebanon.

By the way, I think it would be very interesting to see some Arab countries step up to plate and help the Palestinian civilians in a very meaningful way, not just supporting the terrorists groups.

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Mary?[/quote]

Err, the post previous to yours Dick!

[tmto]

Back to the SNCF issue, the more I think about it the less I am convinced that compensation is a good idea. Otherwise what's to stop the descendents of those who perished on the Titanic from sueing present-day Cunard over the excessive speed of the liner in icy waters, insufficient life boats and unfair evacuation policy regarding the 3rd class passengers? (Cunard merged with the White Star Line - owners of the Titanic -in the 1930s). How about sueing Lloyd's for underwriting slave-trading ships, which they are very likely to have done as they were founded long before slavery was abolished in Britain. There has to be a point where a generation should not have to pay (financially) for the misdeeds of previous ones.

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]"Albert" - I am also part Romany. I use insulting terms with the best of them, but you chose the original username of 'Infopikey'. Not nice. I just get a bit tired of 'in your face' statements that are supposed to be anti-political-correctness but are, in fact, just a wee bit puerile. Hey - if you believe in what you say, you could use your real name - how about that?
[/quote]

I don't give a (choose your candidate for the profanity filter) about anti-political-correctness. I don't know anything about your background, but in the area where I grew up we all used 'pikey' to refer to our group of families. If you have a problem with that I'm quite prepared to accommodate you. However, I can remember you joining in a 'if you were a pikey you would...' session in an earlier thread. (Can't find it now; I think the posts were probably pulled.)

You have already addressed me by my 'real name', but I choose to only use my forename in open forum. Unfortunately I've also been on the receiving end of some extremely nasty racial abuse by the same person, I believe, as the one who was parodying my name earlier in this thread. As I am in the process of building a house in Brittany I would rather not give idiots like that too many clues to my identity.

I fail to see how using my full name would demonstrate that I believe what I say -- whatever you may mean by that.

If you want to continue this I suggest that you reply by PM to save other people from being witnesses to Romany tribal warfare.[:)]

 

 

[Salty Sam]

WJT wrote"But please don't say that you would do nothing and allow the population of your country to be wiped out."

I suggest you look at the history of  the build up and formation of the Israeli State. They were allowed to set their own borders and ended up taking some 70% more land than the original UN agreement.

"As far as humiliating the Palestinians, it is such a shame that they had such a crooked leader"

Take a long hard look at the background of some of those who have held positions within the Israeli Government. In particular, take alook at the Zionist movement of the 1930's.

"I feel it was a big mistake as it was to leave southern Lebanon."

But they haven't left, nor have they stopped the sea blockade. How would you feel if  the americans suddenly decided to invade the UK in the interest of "peace" because we are harbouring terrorists - which in effect we are i.e suspected aircraft bombers! 

"By the way, I think it would be very interesting to see some Arab countries step up to plate and help the Palestinian civilians in a very meaningful way, not just supporting the terrorists groups."

Jordan has been doing it for years and unless you've seen first hand the hardships the Palestinian are suffering in what can only be called transit camps and shanty towns, you might think before commenting.

 

[Deimos]

WJT

I am not prepared to pick an argument with you - particularly as you are reading the events of the recent conflict in the Lebanon in the "wrong order" and thus you are interpreting things with a bias in favour of the Israelis (just check what the Israeli's did before Hesbola militia started firing their rockets)..

I'm afraid that there is international law that directs what a country can and cannot do when it comes to wars and civilians - and Israel ignored the lot (laws that is). What I would or would not do is irrelevant (though I would not lay waste to a neighbouring country to try and get two kidnapped soldiers back).

It all comes down to how the human race treat each other. What lessons we have learnt from mistakes through history. There have been some major mistakes (e.g. the Holocaust) yet we fail to learn from them, fail to act any better and we thus seemed destined to repeat them. In these war torn days I do feel that the future of the human race is limited.

However WJT, I do object to being called anti-Semitic and thought you would have been apologising for such a nasty accusation. I really feel you your apologise for that comment.

Ian

[Viv]

 The article states that the transport took the Jews took a detention centre for onward transit presumably by another company. Forgetting about hindsight for a minute, but would a French train driver really have had any idea at that time of their final destination?

I don't fully understand the problems in Palestine. I think historically, the Jewish people have as much right to live there as do the Arabs. It does seem that the creating of the state of Israel, could be perceived as another problem created by the West. But it does exist and surely the Arab states have had 60 years to get used to the idea.

 

[chris pp]

" But it does exist and surely the Arab states have had 60 years to get used to the idea".

Well, that would be fine, Diva Star, if Israel complied with UN resolutions and left the territories that it has occupied and annexed by acts of war, no other Country has been allowed to get away with that.

Chris

[Russethouse]

Diva, This is from the BBC site today http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5299938.stm

 

[KathyC]

[quote user="chris pp"]

" But it does exist and surely the Arab states have had 60 years to get used to the idea".

Well, that would be fine, Diva Star, if Israel complied with UN resolutions and left the territories that it has occupied and annexed by acts of war, no other Country has been allowed to get away with that.

Chris

[/quote]

Apart from Turkey in Cyprus.

[WJT]

[quote user="Salty Sam"]

WJT wrote"But please don't say that you would do nothing and allow the population of your country to be wiped out."

I suggest you look at the history of  the build up and formation of the Israeli State. They were allowed to set their own borders and ended up taking some 70% more land than the original UN agreement.

It has ended up being 50% more not 70%. Many gained after wars being won that incedentally were waged against them first.

"As far as humiliating the Palestinians, it is such a shame that they had such a crooked leader"

Take a long hard look at the background of some of those who have held positions within the Israeli Government. In particular, take alook at the Zionist movement of the 1930's.

Yes, I do agree that there were actions taken in the past that weren't right. However, many of these actions happened at the same time as the UK and America and other countries were refusing entry and knowingly sending back Jewish refugees to the death camps.

"I feel it was a big mistake as it was to leave southern Lebanon."

But they haven't left, nor have they stopped the sea blockade. How would you feel if  the americans suddenly decided to invade the UK in the interest of "peace" because we are harbouring terrorists - which in effect we are i.e suspected aircraft bombers! 

If we had terrorists that were pretty much beginning to govern our country and were launching several hundred rockets into America willy nilly and oh yea saying that they want to obliviate America. Well too right, I would expect the Americans or any nation to have a sea blockade and a hell of a lot more!

"By the way, I think it would be very interesting to see some Arab countries step up to plate and help the Palestinian civilians in a very meaningful way, not just supporting the terrorists groups."

Jordan has been doing it for years and unless you've seen first hand the hardships the Palestinian are suffering in what can only be called transit camps and shanty towns, you might think before commenting.

Yes, little ol Jordan has helped, they have many times done the right thing haven't they. Where are the others? Again outside of supporting and funding terrorism. Shame for the Palestinian population.

Interesting that you are so sure that I haven't been to the area. As bad as it is and the whole situation is a shambles but at this point I am not sure what you would expect Israel to do. They have given back Gaza, if they gave back all of the territory pre 1947, the war that they won that was launched against them. By the way they have said many times they are willing to do this. Do you think this will bring peace with the Palestinians and the other Arab countries? If not I would be interested to know what you think they should do.

 

[/quote]

[WJT]

[quote user="Deimos"]WJT I am not prepared to pick an argument with you - particularly as you are reading the events of the recent conflict in the Lebanon in the "wrong order" and thus you are interpreting things with a bias in favour of the Israelis (just check what the Israeli's did before Hesbola militia started firing their rockets)..

Interesting that you see it that way because I think you are reading it wrong and are interpreting with a bias against Israel!

Israel knew that Hezbolla was building weapons there was very bad intelligence on the ground which someone in Israel should answer to. They should have done something about much sooner to prevent the horrible situation it turned into. Unfortunately with terrorists groups there is no such thing as just trusting that they will do the right thing.

I'm afraid that there is international law that directs what a country can and cannot do when it comes to wars and civilians - and Israel ignored the lot (laws that is).

That is quite ironic. If you could convince terrorists to not drive planes into buildings, blow up buses and trains. By the way it is not the leaders that blow themselves up which is a shame but the poor young people mostly young men that believe that they will meet virgins in an afterlife, unfortunately these are the ones that don't pay attention to international laws. Again, I am not Jewish or Israeli but I say for such a little country they must do what they need to survive when all of its neighbours and sometimes it appears that most of Europe are against them. Because it could be a matter of time, unfortunately, I am one that believes that with Israel gone the problem will not go away.

 What I would or would not do is irrelevant (though I would not lay waste to a neighbouring country to try and get two kidnapped soldiers back).It all comes down to how the human race treat each other. What lessons we have learnt from mistakes through history. There have been some major mistakes (e.g. the Holocaust) yet we fail to learn from them, fail to act any better and we thus seemed destined to repeat them. In these war torn days I do feel that the future of the human race is limited.

I do not mean to insult but a lot of people have critisms over what is being done but don't have any suggestions. Perhaps negotiate, Unfortunately you must have a partner. It is not possible to negotiate with someone that does not want to and just wants to kill you, again what would you do?

However WJT, I do object to being called anti-Semitic and thought you would have been apologising for such a nasty accusation. I really feel you your apologise for that comment. Ian[/quote]

I do apologise. I really wasn't pointing a finger at just you. As you can see I feel quite passionate and get very upset over this matter. I just cannot understand the very biased views and news that we get in the UK. To be honest I didn't even look in on this thread for a while because France's history (a place that I adore and want to live out my days in) in the Holocaust really upsets me. The thread was strictly on that issue albeit with some very distasteful comments mind you but I was beginning to follow it when the Israeli bashing started. I am sorry, I really didn't mean to get personal but you have to admit that some people that are anti-Semitic do express themselves this way so my comment was on not just your post but others as well.

I apologize again.

[powerdesal]

Irrespective of this thread being hijacked consider this:-

In 1990 Country A invaded Country B on whatever pretext they claimed,

the International Community raised a task force and expelled the forces

of Country A.

In 2006 Counntry C invaded Country D on whatever pretext they claimed.Where was the International outrage?

The difference is of course that Country C is poor little Israel.

Cluster munitions used on a civilian population, villages flattened,

blockades in place, thousands of civilians killed and (probably) many

more thousands maimed. Indiscrimate bombing of civilian areas. All is

acceptable because terrorists were attacking Israel.

I am niether anti-semitic nor pro-arab but as far as I am concerned the

International Community are seriously guilty of the application of

double standards.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="WJT"]

when the Israeli bashing started. I am sorry, I really didn't mean to get personal but you have to admit that some people that are anti-Semitic do express themselves this way so my comment was on not just your post but others as well.

[/quote]

I wish the English language could ditch this dreadful term "anti-Semitic".

People can't even agree on what it means!  It's generally used to mean "anti-Jewish", but then some clever clogs will always point out its real origin, and how it should include Arabs, and so on ad nauseam.  Pedantic and usually pointless.

And now it's being used in a political argument!   Most criticisms of Israel's actions are not anti-Jewish, they're anti-Israel.   Not quite the same thing.

I have seen nobody being anti-Jewish here, I'm sure that would be stamped on toot sweet. 

 

[Dick Smith]

Taking a position against Israel's 'strong stance' is probably best described as anti-Zionism. I've known several Jews who were anti-Zionist but pro-Israeli.

[Deimos]

powerdesal wrote: "but as far as I am concerned the International Community are seriously guilty of the application of double standards."

I think the international community did express outrage. However, the US and Tony Blair (yes, seems pretty well just Tony Blair as many of his cabinet, ex-ministers, party, etc. were trying to persuade him to express outrage but as normal he knew better) decided they wanted to support Israel (US for predictable reasons, Tony Blair for different but equally predictable reasons).

I believe politicians have a lot to answer for - but is history is anything to go by they will never answer difficult questions about their actions.

Ian

[WJT]

Sorry, anti-Semitism is the term I use, perhaps it doesn't apply in some cases. It is funny though that whenever the topic is about Israel defending itself the Holocaust seems to be brought up or even worse vice versa as in this thread. To my mind that pretty much relates to a Jewish state not of course relating to the many Arabs that are Israeli citizens. Mind you there were a few statements made from a poster on the subject of the trains that were pretty blatant.

And yes I agree that history will tell. I am disappointed that those that are very critical haven't answered my question. Again, I am sorry but it is very easy to sit back and criticise a country's actions to try and survive but again my question that is completely being ignored; what would you do? Perhaps the answer is in the reply.[Www]

[Dick Smith]

I wouldn't waste time answering pointless questions.

[WJT]

After seeing a few of your posts, I am very surprised and disappointed that came from you Dick [:(].  Perhaps I should have said "what would you recommend doing that would work?" . But in any case I imagine that question will help put this thread to bed, unless there are a few more snide remarks to come without a constructive answer.

[Dick Smith]

No, I mean it. There are questions which are not susceptible to answers, especially in forums such as these. If there was an answer to the middle east and its problems then we would see what it is and do it, surely?  And we would have done it by now. Not all problems have solutions.

What has happened in this thread is that, rather than address the central issues of residual responsibility for actions linked to the holocaust, people have raised numerous red herrings and put up straw man arguments. I don't know why.

[Deimos]

With regard to "residual responsibility", I suppose the question becomes: Do people who had nothing to do with the actions, who deplore those action, who were not even born at the time, etc. have the responsibility to financially compensate the relatives of those who suffered ?

If people start having to bear financial responsibility for actions they had nothing to do with, that were beyond their control, etc. it seems to start being a bit unfair. Maybe some might start to feel a bit of resentment (which would make matters even worse).

Ian

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Diva Star"]

 I think historically, the Jewish people have as much right to live there as do the Arabs. It does seem that the creating of the state of Israel, could be perceived as another problem created by the West. But it does exist and surely the Arab states have had 60 years to get used to the idea.

[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

And before that, the Jews had at least 1500 years of getting used to the idea of it not being entirely theirs!

As Dick said, some problems have no solutions. 

 

[Dick Smith]

Ian - it is the institution which is held to be responsible, as an entity, not any individual person.

It's easy to claim that something is preposterous if you also make a preposterous claim.

[Deimos]

Dick, I appreciate that it is the institution being held responsible. However, in practice (and particularly as it is a state institution), this means that people will end up paying the bill. Maybe tax payers, maybe train users, maybe infrastructure investment will suffer, etc. This I wonder if you can separate the "institution" from "individuals" in this case (i.e. in the case of SNCF).

Ian

[Dick Smith]

That argument is true of any institution, public or private. To accept it gives the institution carte blanche to act in any way it wishes.

Please note, however, that SNCF still charges for tickets, so it is corporate, not taxpayers' money.