Woodlands Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Help!I have just received a Citation a Prevenu Devant le Tribunal Correctionnel for not having a Permis de Construire for a yoga deck we built in good faith - with the verbal permission of our local mayor, who it turns out did not give us the correct advice. Long, boring story... Basically what I want to know is, what is the likely outcome of such a court hearing? Will I be slapped with a fine of a few hundred or a few thousand Euros? Has anyone had to go through this procedure? I know nothing of the French court system. Is there a French equivalent of the Citizens Advice Bureau or some other organisation I can contact for advice (my French is good)?Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laine Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Hi,I'm certainly not an expert on this, but a good start for you might be ADIL (something like Citizen's Advice). You could type this into Google, or perhaps find them in your Yellow Pages.Good luck.Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Korrigan Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 A what? yoga deck...? I should be curious who snitched on you... or is this a very public structure...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodlands Posted September 28, 2005 Author Share Posted September 28, 2005 [quote]A what? yoga deck...? I should be curious who snitched on you... or is this a very public structure...?[/quote]No, it's not a public structure at all. It's hidden in the woods below out property. But it is a very nasty neighbour. She wrote to the local gendarmes to complain... without coming to us first or the local mayor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Have you now applied for a permis?If you were to be found guilty the penalties are demolition and a mimum fine of 1200 Euros and a maximum of 6000 Euros per square metre constructed. (l'article L. 480-4 du code de l'urbanisme)In other words it is well worth fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Sorry to say this but it just goes to show that you must get everything on paper in France and never ever trust any verbal agreements. At the worst you will be made to take the structure down and be fined as mentioned but then you can apply again properly and hopefully get your permission and re-use the materials. I wish you luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owens88 Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Just out of interest how big is the deck ? Does anybody know whether the same would apply to patio decking? Is there a minimum area before it MUST be asked for ?John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 If the deck's area is less than two square metres and it is also less than 1.5 metres high then it would automatically be exempt from needing a permis/ declaration.It would also be exempt if the height is less than 60cms irrespective of the overall area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapaix Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Is a permit needed for everything? We want to lay a boule court - regulation size - would we need permission for that, please?Lynda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodlands Posted September 28, 2005 Author Share Posted September 28, 2005 [quote]Just out of interest how big is the deck ? Does anybody know whether the same would apply to patio decking? Is there a minimum area before it MUST be asked for ? John[/quote]The deck is 10m by 6.5m so 65m2. At its highest point it is about 120cm off the ground. Apparently it needs a permis not because of its height (I know about the 60cm rule) but because it has a thin coating of cement under each supporting pillar, making it technically non-demontable. If it was demontable, we'd be allowed it, even though it's on a piece of land which is non-urbanisee. Having said this, the deck IS actually demontable because the cement does not go into the ground, it just lies on top, and it about 2cm thick. However, the gendarmes say that the fact it has any cement in it at all makes it demontable by definition. Of course, we've only found all this out since being hauled up for it - as I said, the maire gave us his verbal permission for it at the outset. You might ask why haven't we taken it down if it's demontable - well because we need it for our business (we run yoga retreats) and there is nowhere else to put it on our land!Don't know about patio decking I'm afraid. I would imagine it falls into the same category as our yoga deck. There is a max. surface area for non-demontable decks (20m2?) but if it's demontable, ie made without any fixing materials at all, and I mean not a drop of cement anywhere, then I THINK you're fine for any size.A deck apparently is subject to slightly different we would noinly be able to have it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodlands Posted September 28, 2005 Author Share Posted September 28, 2005 [quote]Hi,I'm certainly not an expert on this, but a good start for you might be ADIL (something like Citizen's Advice). You could type this into Google, or perhaps find them in your Yellow Pages.Good luck....[/quote]I checked out ADIL but it seemed to just concern 'logements' (that's the 'L' in ADIL). I couldn't find anything relating to my query, at least not on the website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 The rules specifying what doesn't need permission are pretty explicit so I think you are going to need an avocat who knows about planning laws and how to play the game / limit your risks.If the ground is outside the constructible area that is an additional problem you will need to overcome. In many areas they are very strict about any construction outside the villages unless it is for agricultural or government purposes.As far as more general matters are concerned I don't think that the absence of cement would be sufficient to prove that a structure is temporary, though its presence may well be proof of permanence. For example a wooden fence needs permission whatever the construction.A list of the exemptionshttp://www.herault.equipement.gouv.fr/publications/index_publications.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris pp Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 I am sorry to hear about your troubles.I am forever telling people not to listen to their Mayor - someone I know was told by his Mayor that he need not worry about fencing his swimming pool! Always write to the relevant authority, preferably in Paris.Good luck, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senrabbit Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I am forever telling people not to listen to their Mayor - someone I know was told by his Mayor that he need not worry about fencing his swimming pool! Always write to the relevant authority, preferably in Paris. I have just visited our Marie and asked about my proposed patio decking. Even after expalining about this post and telling the lady the size of my project, she said I do not need a permis de construire. We will now write to the Marie asking for a detailed response. After that which is the relevant authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 The DDE is the people who usually grant the permis. Others would be embroiled too I suppose if buildings were protected etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Maxsan. Why not just submit a simple Déclaration de Travaux to the mairie with the usual photos and plan etc with all the details on it as long as it is not over 20m². That way, the maire personally will see your application and decide and send it in writing not just the spoken word by some secretary who probably dosn't even know the rules. I keep telling people that in France you must get everything in writing no matter how stupid or petty it seems,if anything every did come back you have the proof and France these days seems to be worst country in Europe for proving your side of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fi Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Sorry to hear about your problem, hopefully you will be able to resolve. Is everything such a nightmare? We would like to put down a deck in our (enclosed) garden, it will be quite a large surface area - do we need to seek permission for this?Also, we would like to create a bathroom of sorts in an attached outbuilding (sorry if this is going off the thread slightly) would we also need permission for this?ThanksFiona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapaix Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I've asked this question twice before, but not had a reply, so perhaps no one know the answer - do we need the maire's permission (or anyone else's come to that) to lay down a proper boule court?Lynda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 [quote]I've asked this question twice before, but not had a reply, so perhaps no one know the answer - do we need the maire's permission (or anyone else's come to that) to lay down a proper boule court? Lyn...[/quote]I don't think so but go to your local DDE office and they will tell you.As somebody has already said it is the DDE who decide, you talk to the mayor as a matter of curtesy but at the end of the day it is the DDE who grant permission. Many a person round here has started work at six and a half weeks only to find the mayors secretary has forgotten to forward the documents on. Everybody now takes them to the DDE office and gets a receipt and then sends a copy of the application to the mayor just to keep them in the loop. Not only that but a mayor is a mayor and knows a little about everything and will not be a building/legal specialist like the DDE.With regards to the original post I would talk nicely to the DDE (not the gendarmes) and ask if they would come and have a look because if it did need permission it is they that would grant it.Eat a bit of humble pie tell them you MAY have got it wrong and what could you do to put it right. You might be pleasantly surprised....... but then you might get a stroppy one who won't help at all. Either way it's worth a punt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senrabbit Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 [quote]Maxsan. Why not just submit a simple Déclaration de Travaux to the mairie with the usual photos and plan etc with all the details on it as long as it is not over 20m². That way, the maire personally w...[/quote]"Maxsan. Why not just submit a simple Déclaration de Travaux to the mairie with the usual photos and plan etc with all the details on it as long as it is not over 20m². That way, the maire personally will see your application and decide and send it in writing not just the spoken word by some secretary who probably dosn't even know the rules. I keep telling people that in France you must get everything in writing no matter how stupid or petty it seems,if anything every did come back you have the proof and France these days seems to be worst country in Europe for proving your side of things."Yes that sounds like exactly the plan. I agree with you whether in France or the Uk always make em write it down. merci. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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